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Mycal101
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Mycal101
307 posts
Nomad

Do you think the U.S.A will ever have a female president ? If they ever do I hope for their sake its not Sarah Palin. Also I am glad in Australia we dont have politicians that stupid. I think Michelle Obama would be great

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Minotaur55
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Minotaur55
1,373 posts
Blacksmith

To be honest.... I dont think so. Not because I am a sexist, but because when do you ever see a Female have a high ranking? It is very rare, and in the USA it has never even happened! There have been a few female Prime Ministers but over all, the male gender gets the upper hand in politics (in my opinion). I think that women would have to REALLY work for it in order to become a president.

I think Michelle Obama would be great


Hmm, I dont think President Obama would just give up his position to his wife, I think... I dont know. That would be interesting to see though.
Xzeno
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Xzeno
2,301 posts
Nomad

*skims thread* blah blah someone saying women politicians are better, oh good social context has been discussed, I can skip it, someone didn't read the thread and skipped to an out of context quote... looks like everything's good here. Oh, here's something fun:

It seems, however, that the feminist agenda's modus operandi is to stigmatize male talent and exalt female talent. "Shouldn't be so sexist."
Hmm... this is interesting. I'm gonna say... bull****. Yep. Bull****. Final answer.

There's two myths I'd like to address here. One, that feminism is about making women better than men. That isn't a very fun point, because it's simply false. Feminist is the word for the philosophy asserting equality and rejecting patriarchy. Know your history, y'all. Your history. You're all feminists, I'm sure. If you aren't... choke on a rusty hook, I guess.

The second is the implication that the world is becoming sexist against men or in favor of women. This is largely just a sad instance of the spotlight fallacy. We see rich white men on top, grinding us into the dirt and we go "okay, this is life. Seems right." And then we see some minority or female group being given any form of advantage, and then, even if they're still worse off, we get mad about how the world is giving them special privileges.

Women have historically been disadvantaged. They continue to be so in the United States. We do not have equality, neither actually nor in law. Despite what parydevil's hilariously bad source indicates, the inferior status of women in society is a result of discrimination, past and present, not some falsehood regarding relative merits of individuals. We should see the poor and disadvantaged and wonder how to make society more equal. But we don't. We see them getting barely enough to eat and scream that we should get a bigger piece of the pie.

No one likes to see a ****** on a good horse, and no one hates it more than another ******. For what it's worth, I'm against affirmative action and think everyone ought to be, but that is one principle we should hold onto with the utmost sorrow, accepting that our ethical duty is to endure the horror of inequality in the name of the principle of equality. We should be proud of this principle, but never enjoy it.
Skyla
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Skyla
291 posts
Peasant

Hmm... this is interesting. I'm gonna say... bull****. Yep. Bull****. Final answer.


Should have hedged, it would have been more appropriate to say "SOME feminists' MO.." - as with any group there are extremists. Since the educated opinions in this thread were too 'ro-women', I felt it was important to offer an alternate perspective.

There's two myths I'd like to address here. One, that feminism is about making women better than men. That isn't a very fun point, because it's simply false. Feminist is the word for the philosophy asserting equality and rejecting patriarchy. Know your history, y'all. Your history. You're all feminists, I'm sure. If you aren't... choke on a rusty hook, I guess.


Not entirely false, though, at least on a psychological level. Seeking equal rights, which is what feminism was about, is a just cause. It seems to me, however, that the agenda is blurry. Do we want blind equality? Or do we want the rights and privileges that men receive in society, while retaining our unique privileges (i.e. being the recipients of chivalric practices, less expectation to take on the role of &quotrovider", and many more inherent and unique advantages).


The second is the implication that the world is becoming sexist against men or in favor of women. This is largely just a sad instance of the spotlight fallacy. We see rich white men on top, grinding us into the dirt and we go "okay, this is life. Seems right." And then we see some minority or female group being given any form of advantage, and then, even if they're still worse off, we get mad about how the world is giving them special privileges.


Privileges, by their nature, defy equality. While I do agree that women should receive equal rights, it's not going to be accomplished by offering different groups of people a disparate set of rights or treatment. A spotlight fallacy? Hardly. One doesn't have to look far to see how intolerant our society is towards misogyny and how closely it borders on supporting misandry, especially in modern feminist circles. Hell, my spellchecker doesn't even recognize "misandry" but does for "misogyny". It started out as a noble movement for equal rights across the sexes, but is spiraling into a 'take what you can get, then get some more' mindset. We should aim for equality with the opposite sex, whether it serves our personal benefit or not.

Women have historically been disadvantaged. They continue to be so in the United States. We do not have equality, neither actually nor in law.


Agreed, and we should push to receive equal rights across the board, in actuality and in law. This would mean we would give up certain inherent benefits (in actuality and in law, again), but the end definitely justifies the means.
Jacen96
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Jacen96
3,087 posts
Bard

Some feminists do go to far, I heard about a news story where a bunch of women sued walmart because they were getting paid LESS money for LESS work, they won and got a huge settlement.

p.s. No one in my family likes walmart so that is why I heard about this.

I AM NOT 100 PERCENT SURE ABOUT THIS, IT IS A RUMOR I HEARD, BUT IT PROBABLY WILL HAPPEN. (eventually)

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

To be honest.... I dont think so. Not because I am a sexist, but because when do you ever see a Female have a high ranking? It is very rare, and in the USA it has never even happened! There have been a few female Prime Ministers but over all, the male gender gets the upper hand in politics (in my opinion). I think that women would have to REALLY work for it in order to become a president. 


Philippines, Argentina, the UK, India, Sri Lanka, Iceland, Israel, Pakistan, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Turkey, Indonesia, Senegal, all have or had female leaders at the top as Presidents or Prime Ministers. If a female can take power in some of those nations which we constantly lampoon as backward looking, I don't see why the US won't see one. Clinton came quite close in 2008 at any rate.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

Some feminists do go to far, I heard about a news story where a bunch of women sued walmart because they were getting paid LESS money for LESS work, they won and got a huge settlement.

p.s. No one in my family likes walmart so that is why I heard about this.

I AM NOT 100 PERCENT SURE ABOUT THIS, IT IS A RUMOR I HEARD, BUT IT PROBABLY WILL HAPPEN. (eventually)


there is only 1 place where something stupid as this can happen.
Masterforger
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Masterforger
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Peasant

there is only 1 place where something stupid as this can happen.

OOOH! Ooh! Pick me! Is it the only country starting with "U"?

No, no. Other countries do stupid things. Russia failed to relinquish vanquished lands at the end of WWII, Britain attempted to keep hold of the U.S., France tried to take over Britain, Sweden let the Germans take iron through them, etc, etc.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

No, no. Other countries do stupid things. Russia failed to relinquish vanquished lands at the end of WWII, Britain attempted to keep hold of the U.S., France tried to take over Britain, Sweden let the Germans take iron through them, etc, etc.


How about not leap to conclusions? It is true that much of the world views the USA in such bad light, and there are reasons for it.
Masterforger
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Masterforger
1,824 posts
Peasant

How about not leap to conclusions? It is true that much of the world views the USA in such bad light, and there are reasons for it.

Errr...do you mean "No, Masterforger, only the U.S. does this kind of thing" or did you misread my post?
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

No I didn't misread your post. What I am saying is, much of the world does think the USA is full of crackpots. We laugh at the number of evangelicals, we laugh at the bipartisan jokes, we laugh at the US trying to impose it's will on the world. The world isn't exactly wholly fond of the US, and we're entitled to that opinion.

Xzeno
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Xzeno
2,301 posts
Nomad

No I didn't misread your post. What I am saying is, much of the world does think the USA is full of crackpots. We laugh at the number of evangelicals, we laugh at the bipartisan jokes, we laugh at the US trying to impose it's will on the world. The world isn't exactly wholly fond of the US, and we're entitled to that opinion.
Which isn't related to what he said at all. Masterforger was displaying that the US is not the only country that does messed up stuff. You are affirming that the US does messed up stuff. These are not mutually exclusive! Of course the US does bad things. Of course other countries do too. Your appraisal of the US is not inaccurate. Your belief in its uniqueness is.

it's not going to be accomplished by offering different groups of people a disparate set of rights or treatment.
I've thought about this notion a lot, and I don't buy it. Affirmative action doesn't inhibit equality. It allows something that would remain unequal to be equalized. Affirmative action would create a truly equal society faster. I'm still against it, but it would be pragmatically good.

A spotlight fallacy? Hardly. One doesn't have to look far to see how intolerant our society is towards misogyny and how closely it borders on supporting misandry, especially in modern feminist circles.
Yeah, see, that's the part I don't accept. Misogyny has been the status quo for so long in our culture that most people are utterly blind to it. While you may not have to look far to see misandry, you have to look at all. Not so with misogyny. With misandry, it's true, there are extremist factions that make the rest of us look bad. But our culture has long been ruled by the deep, basic assumptions that woman is weak, woman is subservient, woman is to be objectified, woman is lesser.

The pendulum has begun its swing in the opposite direction. People reject any institution they see themselves as not a part of. This is why we see a rising conservative backlash against feminism: people perceive it as "going to far" because it is both attempting to change the status quo and not something they immediately identify with. You say misandry is common, but I see the opposite. I see a world where anyone who speaks out against the ritual objectification and abuse of women our culture glorifies is instantly branded as a radical feminist who seeks to oppress men. If equality is oppressing men, I want nothing more.

I don't know. If Nicho can stop misreading posts in order to rant about some political agenda that's only semi-related to an off-topic post, I'm sure he'll have something good to say. He's more of a social scientist than I am.

And you'll have to tell me what your ban message is, Partydevil. I hope it's a pun.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

Which isn't related to what he said at all. Masterforger was displaying that the US is not the only country that does messed up stuff. You are affirming that the US does messed up stuff. These are not mutually exclusive! Of course the US does bad things. Of course other countries do too. Your appraisal of the US is not inaccurate. Your belief in its uniqueness is.


sure they are not the only 1. but they are very active and very good in doing so.

it happens often that the usa government and/or court. are proposing stupid things. where you have to take "stupid" literally. more often then a normal county does.
what masterforger came up whit was some things that happened in history. not really actual things.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Which isn't related to what he said at all. Masterforger was displaying that the US is not the only country that does messed up stuff. You are affirming that the US does messed up stuff. These are not mutually exclusive! Of course the US does bad things. Of course other countries do too. Your appraisal of the US is not inaccurate. Your belief in its uniqueness is.


It is related. I'm not tackling the bit he said the US isnt the only country in the world who does stupid stuff. I'm tackling the part where he is angry at Party for always jumping at Americas throat. If any misunderstanding arose, its because I quoted the wrong parts of his post.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

angry at Party for always jumping at Americas throat.

and i didn't even say usa. i just aswell could have mend...
never mind, there is only 1 place.

(can be everywhere whit corruption tho.)
Jacen96
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Jacen96
3,087 posts
Bard

It was obvious that you were talking about the United States.

@nichodemus,

The U.S. IS not the only country to do stupid things. China allows "communism" to exist, as well as several others. Here is a list of some really bad countries and the crap their governments do.

~~~Darth Caedus

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