Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism

Do you even know what a scientific theory is?
It's a hypothesis

Thank you for proving me right in that you do not know what you are talking about.

Then ask a question

How can you say god loves everyone when he lets people go to hell.

What makes your religion any different than the other thousands of them.

If the bible is the word of god, why are there so many things in it that today are obviously considered immoral by everyone, and told that they are good.

There is no hard evidence that has been given to me that I can't argue.

More like no evidence you can't ignore.

You're all asking me to prove God to you, and the fact is is that I can't. You all want a videotape of God in heaven and anything else is insufficient. What you're asking me to do is impossible, so thus your entire argument fails.

This causes your own argument of God exists to fail, as you have nothing to base this claim on.

Translation: A scientific theory is a collection of data and observations of phenomena that seem to fit together because they sound good together. Yes, there is logical, factorial evidence that supports it, but it't not a fact because it can't be 100% proven.

No it's not just because it sounds good together it's because it fits together. A bit like how puzzle pieces go together. A theory doesn't prove things because it has to remain falsifiable, meaning it makes predictions about the natural world that are testable by experimentation. This is a main attribute of science and one of the things that makes it so useful.

How can you say god loves everyone when he lets people go to hell.

What makes your religion any different than the other thousands of them.

If the bible is the word of god, why are there so many things in it that today are obviously considered immoral by everyone, and told that they are good.

You are putting God in a little box. People have shaped the image of God over the years. I personally don't believe most of the bible, because the entire thing contradicts itself.
The God I believe in doesn't let people go to hell just for not believing in Him. I am a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, but there are people out here that don't get to hear that, and I believe unless you have completely denied God, kept a closed mind, or have been a wicked man in life (murderers, rapists, those people) that's when people go to Hell. If there is someone who has done good deeds, then why would God deny him heaven because he didn't get a chance to hear about Jesus?
There are two types of truth: relative and Objective. Relative truth is basically our belief system. What may be considered bad by one person is totally acceptable by another. The bible should not hold a ton of water as to what your beliefs are. No one can tell you what you are to believe other than you. All others can do is help you make that self discovery.

That was totally a blob of information that was poorly organized, but I hope that helps

You are putting God in a little box

Thank you again for proving that you just read our posts and repeat what is said in an attempt to sound like you know what you're talking about.

I believe unless you have completely denied God, kept a closed mind, or have been a wicked man in life (murderers, rapists, those people) that's when people go to Hell.

By your definition, I would go to heaven.

That was totally a blob of information that was poorly organized, but I hope that helps

You answered the first, and 3rd, but didn't mention the 2nd.

As for that, I too believe that if there is a god, the only way he could be considered all loving is if he would receive all who strove to do good in their lives, not just those who followed some sort of code handed down 2000 years. Also, i'm glag you at least do not take the bible seriously, otherwise I doubt I could have continued cordially.

You are putting God in a little box.

So are you, it's the box of Christianity.

People have shaped the image of God over the years. I personally don't believe most of the bible, because the entire thing contradicts itself.

So where do you get your concept of God from if not from your religion, which get it's concept from that contradictory source?

I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins

That alone puts God as a good character into question by requiring something (or in this case) someone to die just to be forgiving. This forgiveness isn't even unconditional given we have to acknowledge it.

Relative truth is basically our belief system.

Which is based on subjectivity. The problem with that is we can evaluate them to determine there validity, they must either be accepted or rejected based hearsay.

No one can tell you what you are to believe other than you. All others can do is help you make that self discovery.

This makes your previous statement that if we don't buy into it after hearing about, we go to hell ridiculous. Our self discovery lead to there not being a god of any sort. We decided that objective evidence was more reliable over subjective evidence because we didn't have to rely on a third party and could see it for ourselves. But apparently this leads us to hell from what you say. That's pretty sick.

All the link says is that the universe is expanding. That's some circumstantial supporting evidence that can go either way in this debate. I just find it logically impossible that everything was created by accident.

No, you don't understand the theory. The laws of chance dictate that the universe had to be created. I find it logically impossible that God was here for infinity and ended infinity and also that he was never created. This is a lot less likely than the big bang theory.

Again, you keep talking about science. Science and religion don't mix. You can't argue apples with oranges. And for your set of laws, who put them in place? why were they made the way they were? and how in the heck are they so perfect that we are a specific, perfect distance away from the Sun, with an ideal orbit pattern, and everything is tailor- made to support life. Speaking of life, how can you submit that some random crap organized it self and replicated over and over again to make such complex life forms? yeah. Science does a hell of a job explaining everything

Yes, fantasy and fact do not mix.And out of probably trillions of planets there must be lots that are the right distance from the sun. And the laws of chance dictate that life would've happened eventually. And tell us why your god must have been here.

I'll take something that's logically sound over shaky theories any day, thank you. And as far as biology, that's amazingly biased. In fact, everything you all are saying is biased. I'm not coming at you with facts, I have logic. Logic is unbiased

Please tell us why you believe that a magic sky fairy is logical. Because it isn't.

I was actually born atheist. I converted three years ago. I can come at you with supporting science for Christianity, but guess what you would do, you all would call it biased. You're taking theories and hypothesis that have not yet been proven as truth, but I'm the idiot for doing the same thing because I believe in God. Wake up and smell the coffee. You're all being hypocrites, and you're all being so closed minded that anytime I say anything to any of you, you shoot it down as biased or unreliable. There is no point in debating anymore, because all you're doing is being a hypocrite. Your ***** are too big for your pants. When you want to have a real debate, then come and let me know. Or if you have questions, also let me know. Otherwise, all you're doing is you're set out to destroy Christianity and my beliefs only because they are different from yours. Yet I'm the one who's being a hypocrite and can't argue. You all truly have no idea what you are talking about.

Please provide some Christian science. You believe in God which is really unlikely and call everything else theories. That is called being biased.

It's a hypothesis

No that is a speculation, a theory has been experimented on but not yet completely proven.

Then ask a question

You're all asking me to prove God to you, and the fact is is that I can't. You all want a videotape of God in heaven and anything else is insufficient. What you're asking me to do is impossible, so thus your entire argument fails.

OK, how do you know god exists? And it is pretty easy to prove God if God does it. You must have proof or you wouldn't be a christian.

You are putting God in a little box. People have shaped the image of God over the years. I personally don't believe most of the bible, because the entire thing contradicts itself.
The God I believe in doesn't let people go to hell just for not believing in Him. I am a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, but there are people out here that don't get to hear that, and I believe unless you have completely denied God, kept a closed mind, or have been a wicked man in life (murderers, rapists, those people) that's when people go to Hell. If there is someone who has done good deeds, then why would God deny him heaven because he didn't get a chance to hear about Jesus?
There are two types of truth: relative and Objective. Relative truth is basically our belief system. What may be considered bad by one person is totally acceptable by another. The bible should not hold a ton of water as to what your beliefs are. No one can tell you what you are to believe other than you. All others can do is help you make that self discovery.

How do you know what Jesus did without the bible? And I call saying your one little bracnch of christianity is the right one out of millions of religion is close minded. And if being good takes ou to heaven why be a christian.

About Muhammed...He was the last person (That i'm aware of) to claim to be a prophet. Do you think he was one? If not, why so? If you do think so, then what about what he says that's contradictory to Christianity?

Muhammed didn't say Jesus Christ being resurrected, and him being Son of God, therefore he's a false prophet, though preaching the true God.

what exclusions and what conditions?
Self defense.

Again, what exclusions and what conditions? Name me a condition that exists worldwide in which killing is morally approved. So far you fail.

Hello, proof of your claim please. And I was making the point that to muslims what you said is reversed. You distorted the true god.

Well, ask MRWalker82, he said he have read whole of Quran, if he'd provide a verse out of there saying "God said I am Allah, and by this name I want to be known" or similar. There's a verse in the Bible where God said "I am YHWH, and when you will be asked "Who sent you?" reply YHWH sent me" (Exodus 3:14, KJV: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.), and later in Exodus 6:2-3: "And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH (KJV has JEHOVAH here) was I not known to them."

What with all the people not believing in any god and just living life? They would also form a community down there, and I doubt that yours would be bigger.

We first have to be proven wrong, while you don't need to receive any proof. Also your "living a life" includes too many flaws like say lies, and they will make you not create a community in Hell. MGW, this applies to you as well.

We kill animals for food, we kill for self defense or defense of others, some regard killing for territory acceptable...

No one forbid killing animals, for one. We kill for self defence? Yes unfortunately, but the one that attacked should not kill in first place. Some people I have heard of call killer maniacs "beasts", this however is still wrong and is not an excuse for killing that maniac. We kill for territory? This means war, and it's one of the gravest sin. Do you remember that morale is expanding and not shrinking? First it was said "don't kill your tribesman", and only then "don't kill any human", so basically wars are bad for all sides, though greater guilt lies with the offender.

You and every other person on this planet determines those attributes through feelings, that's pretty much the very definition of subjective.

Definitely, read the Bible and Jesus's words about how Father loves all people. These come from God and not from human.

I'm not sure how your coming to the conclusion that this name is a gift.

God gave a name, and gave a promise, and fulfilled the promise with plagues brought upon Egypt, and then a successive passage acrodd the Red sea. So, this deed proved that this name is for real. I have also given you a set of known artifacts proving numerous parts of the Bible, so you can't say circular reference any more.

So if any of the points that other ethical theories make are, in fact, valid, then Christianity's view that God determines morality alone is refuted.

Why, in case any of the ethical theories made a valid point, this might just mean this originated from God, while remaining unknown to those who invent the theory. And it is normal that we can perceive some of the morality and its principles by using our own conscience, which the Church names the voice of God within our hearts.

In DC, the catholic adoption agencies threatened to walk out if they were not exempt from the nondiscimination bill forcing them to let gay couples adopt. The DC government told them to screw off and forced compliance.

If someone acts under force eliminating the word "free" from "free will", then the forced one carries no sin. We have to make laws that support morality, but lawmakers nowadays use laws as a tool for their own needs, say "why a fireman can't save a woman from fire if she's not dressed properly" law in St.Louis, Missouri. This approach will lead many to perdition.

E1337, your Leviticus arguments are already refuted, all by one statement "Love one another as you love yourself" said by Jesus. Note that Jesus stated this commandment as second supreme, thus all lesser instructions are made inferior. Now you should direct these at Him, not at me.

Considering he has already stated this
(and follows)

Nice analysis. What's with the &quotretty much done" tho?

I just don't like how god has to be my superior.

You know what, you have your heart opened by this statement. No person likes someone else to be supreme reign over him, and strives for self-freedom in various aspects. Still, children need to have a parent reign over them, because they will otherwise perish if anything will go wrong. A parent does this to his child out of love for him. I accept God's reign over me seeing as He named me His adopted child, and I know that I won't know enough to make an infallible decision in all of the situations, and I rely on His love for me, knowing that He loves me.

There is a ton of proof for the big bang. You just have wishful thinking.

This is evidence, not proof. There's similar evidence about God, I have given Turin's shroud, Fatima's miracle, and I can also give an unexplained lighting of Europe's night on Jan 25, 1938 which is frequently attributed to be an aurora borealis, but the attributors missed the range and color of the lighting, commonly described as "blood-like" and "fire-like", while aurora borealis is composed of greenish-blue light primarily.

^ This is what was seen back there and
V this V is what a normal aurora borealis looks like.

Us: Here is the objective evidence, lets see what we can make of this.
You: Here is the random stuff I found in Ken Ham's videos, lets see what I can make of this.

Gotcha! Jesus said "You will be judged by your words". Now you're throwing THIS at thepyro222, so I now apply this to MageGrayWolf, qwerty1011 and E1337. I give you evidence (yes, not a cast-iron proof), you throw Monty Python videos at me, other "Context" videos that were made up ignoring cause-and-effect laws and claim your position as being backed up.

We first have to be proven wrong, while you don't need to receive any proof. Also your "living a life" includes too many flaws like say lies, and they will make you not create a community in Hell. MGW, this applies to you as well.

Bull. I really got nothing else to say about this. Your just talking out your ***.

Again, what exclusions and what conditions? Name me a condition that exists worldwide in which killing is morally approved. So far you fail.

It being subjective it doesn't have to be morally approved world wide.

No one forbid killing animals, for one.

I don't recall it specifying to only humans.

We kill for territory? This means war, and it's one of the gravest sin.

Your God seemed to approve of it. Anyway there are those who are fine with fighting over territory. You view that it's wrong (and one I happen to agree with) is just subjective.

I have given Turin's shroud

Which is only possibly evidence of a dead body, not God.

Fatima's miracle

Which was heavily;y bias and we were able to provide a plausible explanation for.

and I can also give an unexplained lighting of Europe's night on Jan 25, 1938 which is frequently attributed to be an aurora borealis, but the attributors missed the range and color of the lighting, commonly described as "blood-like" and "fire-like", while aurora borealis is composed of greenish-blue light primarily.

While rare auroras can produce a red color as shown.
Here's one over Alaska.
http://alaskatrekker.com/a1.htm

you throw Monty Python videos at me, other "Context" videos that were made up ignoring cause-and-effect laws and claim your position as being backed up.

We have brought up far more then that. I guess you really have been ignoring it.

While rare auroras can produce a red color as shown.
Here's one over Alaska.

Interesting. Now, what about the configuration of geomagnetic field that prevents aurora borealis to appear too far from the Earth's magnetic pole (2500 km), and the actual region (nearly entire Western Europe, 5000 km from the magnetic pole)?

Muhammed didn't say Jesus Christ being resurrected, and him being Son of God, therefore he's a false prophet, though preaching the true God.

And the muslims say the same about your Jesus, and have precisely the same amount of proof. The only thing that determines which position you take is the religion you adhere to, which makes this pure speculation and guesswork. Irrelevant.

Again, what exclusions and what conditions? Name me a condition that exists worldwide in which killing is morally approved. So far you fail.

We can't say 100% because everyone has slightly different morals, and because some people have no morals at all, so your argument fails.

However, suppose that someone is trying to kill your child. You have exhausted all other options. The only way to save your child is to kill the aggressor. I'm fairly certain that almost everyone worldwide would agree that this is a morally justified situation.

God gave a name, and gave a promise, and fulfilled the promise with plagues brought upon Egypt, and then a successive passage acrodd the Red sea. So, this deed proved that this name is for real. I have also given you a set of known artifacts proving numerous parts of the Bible, so you can't say circular reference any more.

Perhaps if your claims were verified as accurate we could make such a claim. Perhaps if these 'evidences' you submitted were evidence of God, or of miracles. However as it stands you are making inferences and speculations based on things which prove absolutely nothing and then claiming a victory which has not been achieved.

Why, in case any of the ethical theories made a valid point, this might just mean this originated from God, while remaining unknown to those who invent the theory. And it is normal that we can perceive some of the morality and its principles by using our own conscience, which the Church names the voice of God within our hearts.

Again, personal opinion and speculation without evidence. Proof or it didn't happen homie.

E1337, your Leviticus arguments are already refuted, all by one statement "Love one another as you love yourself" said by Jesus. Note that Jesus stated this commandment as second supreme, thus all lesser instructions are made inferior. Now you should direct these at Him, not at me.

So you are saying that in instances where the Bible contradicts itself, and even where commandments given by God or Jesus contradict the 'love thy neighbor' thing, then the part that contradicts that is wrong? If so, how do you know? And why would God/Jesus spend so much time offering rules for our life if they should be summarily dismissed because they do not promote a 'love thy neighbor' type mentality?

I'm going to skip the rest of your bigotry and ignorance and go right to this:

Interesting. Now, what about the configuration of geomagnetic field that prevents aurora borealis to appear too far from the Earth's magnetic pole (2500 km), and the actual region (nearly entire Western Europe, 5000 km from the magnetic pole)?

Solar winds, lunar and solar anomalies, and other such atmospheric changes have resulted in these optical wonders being seen quite far south, further even than where the purported 'miracle' took place. You seem to have a presupposition that God makes miracles and that anything which could even remotely be described as one is automatically accepted, even when we provide numerous naturalistic explanations. You have been refuted time and again and still make the same claims. It is blatantly obvious that you have no desire for understanding and that you will absolutely refuse any alternate explanation or evidence which doesn't jive with your presupposition. This is an intellectually dishonest method and serves only to further illustrate why religion is a cancer on man. It drives otherwise intelligent and rational folks, such as yourself, to completely dismiss any knowledge or explanation that doesn't fit with your preconceived ideas. It is disgusting, it is a show of willful ignorance, and it amounts to intellectual perjury.

We can't say 100% because everyone has slightly different morals, and because some people have no morals at all, so your argument fails.

Interpretation error detected. I repeat: Given universal morale, what is the conditions and circumstances that allow killing?

And it is normal that we can perceive some of the morality and its principles by using our own conscience, which the Church names the voice of God within our hearts.

Again, personal opinion and speculation without evidence. Proof or it didn't happen homie.

The naming of conscience does not require proof. The ability to perceive correct morale does, however, but proof exists, take medieval Japan, Samurai and honor codex (Bushido). And I have never stated that one can perceive the entire set of morales provided.

Solar winds, lunar and solar anomalies, and other such atmospheric changes have resulted in these optical wonders being seen quite far south

Science fail. The area in question is named "a certain distance from the Earth's magnetic pole", and there are two of them.

So you are saying that in instances where the Bible contradicts itself, and even where commandments given by God or Jesus contradict the 'love thy neighbor' thing, then the part that contradicts that is wrong?

Name me a commandment when Jesus contradicted the "love thy neighbor" commandment, first. Second, Mt 22:40, enforcing the base of every law and prophets on "love thy neighbor". And third, there is the question "Who is my neighbor?" Lk 10:29 and forward, which was expanded to the entire humanity only by Jesus. Leviticus' statements about stoning to death were based on the cast-away statement incurred on the guilty, thus removing that one from the "neighborhood" in terms of "love thy neighbor". Jesus expanded the "neighborhood" to the entire humanity at Lk 6:27-38, and by pardoning sins to the woman caught in adultery at Jn 8:1-11. So from that time onward, Leviticus' death penalties are unable to be employed anywhere, since they are not signs of love to one's neighbor.

I'm going to skip the rest of your bigotry and ignorance

I take this as a "do not want" reply.

Interesting. Now, what about the configuration of geomagnetic field that prevents aurora borealis to appear too far from the Earth's magnetic pole (2500 km), and the actual region (nearly entire Western Europe, 5000 km from the magnetic pole)?

I suggest you read through this. It explains how aurora borealis can be seen much further south than normal, it even includes two recent examples of aurora borealis happening quite far to the south. I would also like to ask where you got the 2500km number from, I have not found that anywhere.

Muhammed didn't say Jesus Christ being resurrected, and him being Son of God, therefore he's a false prophet, though preaching the true God.

Proof please.

Well, ask MRWalker82, he said he have read whole of Quran, if he'd provide a verse out of there saying "God said I am Allah, and by this name I want to be known" or similar. There's a verse in the Bible where God said "I am YHWH, and when you will be asked "Who sent you?" reply YHWH sent me" (Exodus 3:14, KJV: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.), and later in Exodus 6:2-3: "And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH (KJV has JEHOVAH here) was I not known to them."

And the fact that this is a book with no proof behind it has nothing to do with it obviously. How does this even mean anything. That is just another way of saying my name is Yahweh.

We first have to be proven wrong, while you don't need to receive any proof. Also your "living a life" includes too many flaws like say lies, and they will make you not create a community in Hell. MGW, this applies to you as well.

OK, please prove wrong: unicorns, the IPU, The FSM, goblins, pixies, faries etc. You don't have to be proven wrong you have to be proven right. We require no proof since we have no beliefs like you have. And we lived as much a life as you did since we were both wrong.

Definitely, read the Bible and Jesus's words about how Father loves all people. These come from God and not from human.

Yep, wars, plagues, condemning them to hell, definite signs of love.

God gave a name, and gave a promise, and fulfilled the promise with plagues brought upon Egypt, and then a successive passage acrodd the Red sea. So, this deed proved that this name is for real. I have also given you a set of known artifacts proving numerous parts of the Bible, so you can't say circular reference any more.

Please tell us what they are, also please tell us how you know what god did was true.

Why, in case any of the ethical theories made a valid point, this might just mean this originated from God, while remaining unknown to those who invent the theory. And it is normal that we can perceive some of the morality and its principles by using our own conscience, which the Church names the voice of God within our hearts.

but if god defines morals god should be definite. He changes his mind so where does he get these new morals form.

E1337, your Leviticus arguments are already refuted, all by one statement "Love one another as you love yourself" said by Jesus. Note that Jesus stated this commandment as second supreme, thus all lesser instructions are made inferior. Now you should direct these at Him, not at me.

I take it all christians are narcissistic then. And we would debate with him but if we talk to him amazingly our ears receive no audible reply. You remind me of this.

You know what, you have your heart opened by this statement. No person likes someone else to be supreme reign over him, and strives for self-freedom in various aspects. Still, children need to have a parent reign over them, because they will otherwise perish if anything will go wrong. A parent does this to his child out of love for him. I accept God's reign over me seeing as He named me His adopted child, and I know that I won't know enough to make an infallible decision in all of the situations, and I rely on His love for me, knowing that He loves me.

Again, love doesn't come in the form of condemning to hell. And you sounding like propaganda for a dictator. not a good look for god.