ForumsWEPRYou support Israel? I DO

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bobbyr5
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bobbyr5
7 posts
Nomad

I just feel the morals and ethics of the middle east aren't right compared to any western country.

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forisrael
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forisrael
18 posts
Nomad

ummm....hey. Nichodemus, thanks, I agree with almost everything yu said. I know it needs expanding, but was never debating the palestinian right to a state as well. The question really is, if they had a state, would they use that power to attempt to harm or destroy Israel. With great power comes great responsibility.

Zakyman I don't think that he is "failing to grasp" anything. You don't need to be so defensive. The difference between an argument and a discussion is being open to other ideas an opinions. Seriously, stop.

xSgtThomasx if you are still reading, the question is whether or not you support Israel's right to exist, in lieu of all of the conflict between the two factions. A lot of people were debating land issues, like if we should go back to the old borders, before israel took a lot of it back.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

ummm....hey. Nichodemus, thanks, I agree with almost everything yu said. I know it needs expanding, but was never debating the palestinian right to a state as well. The question really is, if they had a state, would they use that power to attempt to harm or destroy Israel. With great power comes great responsibility.


Right mate, sorry for accusing your plan. If it could be broadened along those lines, it would be better. Start with Jerusalem, and if it works, then go with the rest, though I have slight reservations whether it will work due to the rabid natures of both sides' leaders. Just hope peace will come in the end.

The question really is, if they had a state, would they use that power to attempt to harm or destroy Israel. With great power comes great responsibility.


They mentioned that if given a state, they would agree to a peace treaty. If this can be enforced with third party peacekeepers, it would be better.
forisrael
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forisrael
18 posts
Nomad

yeah sure. And you are right that the leaders of each party, at this point, would never agree to such a thing. I think that both peoples have claims to the land, and both have done some pretty terrible things.

macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

I am proud to say I support Israel.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

For the love of God, your blatant use of hyperbole just reflects the complete opposite state of your intelligence.

forisrael
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forisrael
18 posts
Nomad

^like

forisrael
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forisrael
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Nomad

And for the record, the palestinians have killed millions of innocent Israelis...

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

And for the record, the palestinians have killed millions of innocent Israelis...


Er....no. Both sides have killed plenty, but the death count hasn't and thankfully won't reach that high.
macfan1
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macfan1
421 posts
Nomad

And for the record, the palestinians have killed millions of innocent Israelis...



I agree.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

I agree.


Official tally does not agree. If you count the deaths from the wars alone, they don't reach that high (And that's cheating, by counting the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqis, etc as Palestinians). Even if you factor in all the acts of terror and civilian bombing by both sides it doesn't reach that level.

I would like to suggest you do research before posting, or don't even post.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

maybe if it go's that high the problem will be solved faster.
i realy can't keep track of all the **** that happens there. there is alot of blameing and i don't care about it anymore realy.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

How can the Palestinians say they want peace if they keep launching rockets into Israel and suicide bombing them? CLEARLY this is a sign of NEVER EVER wanting to have peace, or, at least according to you it is.


Again, before someone badmouths me as an entirely pro-Palestinian Hamas-supporting, bomb strapping activist, who calls Israel a ''heartless monster'', it should be stated clearly again that I'm not laying the blame squarely on the shoulders of Israel and have never did. Hamas definitely has a large role to play in the form of blatant terrorism, but, and here comes a very big but, Israel cannot forever deny the Palestinians what is rightfully theirs.

Furthermore, it should be noted that the the Palestinian people themselves contributed only a mere fraction of the troops in all three wars, with the Yom Kippur War almost exclusively fought by Syrian and Egyptian soldiers, and vast majority of troops utilised in the Six Day War were provided by foreign Arab states. It must also be noted Right from the start, the Arab states clearly had other more selfish aims apart from opposing the existence of Israel. They were bitterly divided and utilized the plight of the Palestinian people as a cover for their national goals. In 1946â"47, King Abdullah of Jordan and opponent of Palestinian nationalism said that he had no intention to "resist or impede the partition of Palestine and creation of a Jewish state." and reached a secret agreement with the Israelis to annex parts of Palestine. This was opposed by the Egyptians who wanted to prevent Jordan from becoming the leader of the Arab world, and because they harbored their own dreams of occupying all of South Palestine. Two other Arab states, Lebanon and Syria wished to take parts of Northern Palestine. Finally, all of the Arab states further strengthened the suspicions that they were aiming more for their own goals, rather than support Palestinian Nationalism when they rebuffed many of the military proposals by the Palestinian leaders before the war, and by severely curtailing their armed forces' power. Hence, we can see that right from the start, the 1948 war was perpetuated by the Arab nations mainly for their own goals which not only contradicted those of the Palestinians, but actually aimed at the annexation of Palestine whilst using anti-Israeli bluster as a cover.


Hence, can someone really claim that the Palestinians lost the land in offensive wars which were clearly perpetuated and carried out almost exclusively by Arab legions and hence Israel is really entitled to them? Or that since the end of the 1948 War, the West Bank which Israel claims to have taken from the Palestinians was actually taken from the Jordanians? Or that the Gaza Strip was garrisoned by Egyptian troops and not the Palestinians who finally disgusted by their Arab ''allies'', took up armed resistance in the form of, initially civil disobedience, and then later terrorist groups?

The Palestinian people should not be punished since they are the true victims of everyone, the Israelis who chased them out of their native land in al-Nakhba, and the Arabs who betrayed them for their own selfish gains.
zakyman
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zakyman
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Peasant

Hamas definitely has a large role to play in the form of blatant terrorism, but, and here comes a very big but, Israel cannot forever deny the Palestinians what is rightfully theirs.


Define "rightfully theirs." I could easily counter that ALL if Judea is "rightfully" Israel's.

The Palestinian people should not be punished since they are the true victims of everyone, the Israelis who chased them out of their native land in al-Nakhba, and the Arabs who betrayed them for their own selfish gains.


Not trying to sound like a hearless monster who gives no value to human life, but that is simply bad luck. The two players in this game are Israel and the rest of the Arab world and the Pals are the ball being kicked. Do I sympathize with them? Yes, they have my sympathies. Do I think that if they actually negotiated for once instead of laying down pre-conditions that would simply give them everything they wanted even before negotiating, things would be better for them? Yes. Do I think that them going to the UN is a terrible step in the wrong direction? Yes.

Hence, can someone really claim that the Palestinians lost the land in offensive wars which were clearly perpetuated and carried out almost exclusively by Arab legions and hence Israel is really entitled to them?


Again, bummer for them. Is it entirely their fault? No, however they still have to face the consequences of being on the losing side.

It must also be noted Right from the start, the Arab states clearly had other more selfish aims apart from opposing the existence of Israel. They were bitterly divided and utilized the plight of the Palestinian people as a cover for their national goals.


So the non-existant country of Palestine was made an example of. A sort of warning of "Don't mess with Israel."

Hence, we can see that right from the start, the 1948 war was perpetuated by the Arab nations mainly for their own goals which not only contradicted those of the Palestinians, but actually aimed at the annexation of Palestine whilst using anti-Israeli bluster as a cover.


Well, clearly that didn't happen, so now the Palestinians can come to the table, and negotiate. Yes, I know, accepting the fact that there will be a Jewish country is hard. However, I would like to bring up an interesting point. One main reason that the Pals want Jerusalem so badly is because it has The Dome of the Rock. It is their third-holiest site. However, in Judaism, Jerusalem is the most holy city in the Torah, and furthermore, in the Koran, it is written that Israel belongs to the Jews. Now, you cannot deny that religion is a part of this. It is as much part of this conflict is as the settlers who illegally build on private property, and whose settlements are rightfully torn down.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Because I have been accused of not backing up why I don't support Israel's right to exist in the first place I shall do so now. And before someone says that I did a volt face and previously mentioned that Israel has a right to, yes, I have. However, I do not support the destruction of Israel, because the children of the initial generation know nothing other than Israel and genuinely call it their home. So yes, a compromise, but one whereby Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders and gives the Palestinians a state. If not, then they're severe hypocrites.

Reason number one that most supporters of Israel tend to use is an emotional, moral reasoning. They claim that the world has an obligation to the Jews for the centuries of abuse they have suffered and hence should be granted a homeland and that furthermore the Jews have a spiritual connection to the land.

But why the Levant region? Because as the Zionists (Note, usage is non-pejorative), claim that they have a spiritual link to the land, being one of the earliest settlers of the Palestine, before the Arabs. This, to any logical person's mind is entirely absurd. Yes there have always existed unbroken Jewish communities in the region, but they were after the Romans expelled them, a tiny minority. Yes, we certainly have all the archeological evidence that the Jews or proto-Semitic people settle there, but no amount of thousand year old cracked pottery can justify a people, absent for more than 2000 years, to come back and suddenly push out whoever is living there already.

If such a reasoning is given for any people to have a state, then why isn't America giving up land to the native Indians? Why isn't Russia giving up land for the Caucasian people in the steppes who have dwelled there long before the Russians came? Why isn't Turkey ceding Constantinople back to Greece? Why isn't Australia dividing itself up for its native Aborigines? The reasoning is simple. No one can stick a flag on a piece of land and claim that they will henceforth own it for time eternal, even if they have been driven off for centuries, even if most of their descendants have never stepped foot in the ''romised'' land, even if there's another people living there, that land is theirs. No. When land is lost to a victorious people, it's lost. And before someone states that this is hypocritical of me not supporting Israel's conquests, read up on international law, read up on the Fourth Geneva Accords, read up on my previous post.

Second reason I've heard a lot: The Jews are a small minority in the world and yet furthered the progress of civilization by introducing monotheism, the Marx Brothers, and the Pentium to the world.

Off the bat, being a minority does not justify a state. Furthermore, they are a scattered minority, minorities who have been ingrained and entrenched for centuries in their adopted societies. Should the thousands of African clans and tribes today be given a state each just because they are small? No. Size alone does not justify a state. Someone needs to think a little bit more.

Furthermore, without the state of Israel Jews will no longer want to aid the progression of civilization?

Reason number three: Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Before lauding Israel as a shining model of democracy, it is classified as a ''flawed democracy''. What people are not often told is that groups praising Israel often do not take into consideration Israelâs military rule of the West Bank or its stranglehold of Gaza. When a house is demolished in East Jerusalem or the security wall cuts off an orchard or garden, a Palestinian owner can only file a complaint at a hardly-impartial Israeli military court.

More tellingly, the 2009 Press Freedom Index by Reporters Without Borders (RWB) does distinguish between Israeli practices internally and externally. Internally, it is ranked 93rd, behind countries like Kuwait (60), Lebanon (61) and the UAE (86). Externally, it is ranked 150th, mainly due to its military offensive against the Gaza Strip during which both foreign and Israeli media were denied access.

Meanwhile, recent initiatives by Israelâs coalition government of religionists, âRussiansâ and right-wing nationalists will do little to improve the countryâs democratic standing. On January 5, the Israeli Knesset voted for a plan, initiated by the Yisrael Beitenu Party (YBP) of Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, to investigate the work and funding of domestic and foreign human rights groups.


But before I get carried away, we should look at the sudden rather erratic leap between ''being a democracy'', and hence ''right to exist''. Why should a political doctrine be used as a justification for shoving people off their land just because they're ruled under a more autocratic ruler? Does China, Russia, Turkey being less democratic than other nations mean they should not exist? Or, reverse that. Does being a democracy give you the right to exist as a state? No. A state consists of much more than that.



Reason Number Four: Israel is a roadblock to terrorism.

Given that terrorism as a phenomenon came out more prominently only after 2001, it comes off as a rather laughable and anachronistic argument. If such a reason was given in 1947, no doubt many of the Zionist leaders would have had a good chuckle, seeing that they did carry out numerous terrorist acts against the British to pressure them into giving them a state. Fast forward to the last decade and ask any Palestinian living in camps in the Gaza Strip or West Bank, and they'll tell you what they think of IDF soldiers.


I have seen numerous other reasons that are too absurd and asinine to even list, such as '' Because God said so.'' So I challenge anyone to give me three really good reasons as to why the Zionists had a right to try and establish a state on territory that clearly belonged to other people in the early 20th century.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Define "rightfully theirs." I could easily counter that ALL if Judea is "rightfully" Israel's.


Easy. Partition of 1948. Unless you're telling me the Partition is illegal, which means Israel is illegal too.

Again, bummer for them. Is it entirely their fault? No, however they still have to face the consequences of being on the losing side.


So they are merely collateral damage? That's again, a rather insensitive thing to mention.


Well, clearly that didn't happen, so now the Palestinians can come to the table, and negotiate. Yes, I know, accepting the fact that there will be a Jewish country is hard. However, I would like to bring up an interesting point. One main reason that the Pals want Jerusalem so badly is because it has The Dome of the Rock. It is their third-holiest site. However, in Judaism, Jerusalem is the most holy city in the Torah, and furthermore, in the Koran, it is written that Israel belongs to the Jews. Now, you cannot deny that religion is a part of this. It is as much part of this conflict is as the settlers who illegally build on private property, and whose settlements are rightfully torn down.


False. At the end of the wars, Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip and the Jordanians occupied the West Bank.

Also, did I mention that religion was not part of it? I don't think I had, so where did you get that notion from?

So the non-existant country of Palestine was made an example of. A sort of warning of "Don't mess with Israel."


The state of Palestine existed for a brief period in between the Partition and the war.

Not trying to sound like a hearless monster who gives no value to human life, but that is simply bad luck. The two players in this game are Israel and the rest of the Arab world and the Pals are the ball being kicked. Do I sympathize with them? Yes, they have my sympathies. Do I think that if they actually negotiated for once instead of laying down pre-conditions that would simply give them everything they wanted even before negotiating, things would be better for them? Yes. Do I think that them going to the UN is a terrible step in the wrong direction? Yes.


So why would going to the UN constitute a terrible step? Think about it. In ANY conflict, getting a THIRD PARTY is the best step at mediation, not begging the bullies for mercy.

Furthermore, I have already given examples of when Israel and the PLO have both attempted peace and both because of obstinacy have failed in their attempts. The blame again does not lie squarely on anyone, but on BOTH sides.

And pre conditions are justified, because the land rightfully belongs to them.

Furthermore, by simply just flicking the Pals to a side and treating them as merely having bad luck shows how unfairly Israel treats the Palestinians, most of whom were victims in the conflict. They are not simply something to easily ignore because they picked the wrong side, or more correctly, because they were opposed to anyone taking their land.
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