I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done. I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
I'm not even going to talk to you. You don't read what I link to, you reply based on an idea you have about it that you got from probably skimming the first paragraph of the wiki page.
If you think my question is flawed, please point out where. It's not that we don't have the same understanding of the Book of Life, but that we sum it up differently. God created me, right? He knows whether or not I will accept Jesus Christ, right? He does nothing to stop me from not accepting Jesus Christ (assuming this is my decision), right? So my fate is sealed to burn in Hell. He created me to burn in Hell.
To your most recent link, I agree, life is unfair. My point is that with a god it shouldn't be unfair because he should be influencing morality if he is as powerful as you claim. The final implied approach that we should take to our belief, that life is unfair, doesn't resolve the question at all. In fact, it completely ignores it, because we already knew life was unfair. We're asking WHY it's unfair if God can correct it.
I'm not even going to talk to you. You don't read what I link to, you reply based on an idea you have about it that you got from probably skimming the first paragraph of the wiki page.
You obviously don't read our arguments, you aren't even responding to what BigP08 has even said about God creating us as either evil or good, and then condemning us for how he made us to be. He created us flawed, according to the bible, and then he PUNISHES us for being what he made us? How ****ed up can you get?
Oh, and here's from your link.
but he lacks the power to change it
If God is no omnipotent, then why should we believe he was able to create everything. More so, why should we believe he was required? If something not all powerful could create the universe, obviously it did not take an almighty force to do it. Even further, if such a being is not omnipotent, why does he call himself the Almighty, if he is, in fact, not almighty? That would make him a liar. Which means he isn't perfect. And if he is not perfect, what right does he have to punish us for not being so? Extend this to that he supposedly created us and thus any imperfections with us are directly his fault, he is punishing us for his mistakes. Explain how, in any way, this is either fair, moral, or just. I expect this to be ignored since you do not have an answer to this. Also, if this is in fact ignored, it will just prove that you do not read our posts
First of all, we know that God desires all men (ie. humankind) to be saved.
We know that God would not desire something that is impossible.
If God desires it, and it's possible, then why is it not so?
Read the whole thing
You read my entire post. I read your entire article. I know full well that it listed 5 different views of why the world is not fair or just, and that it included the Jewish and hindu perspective, as well as "God doesn't exist" and, "The world isn't just but that's what the rapture will be for" and, "The world is just"
Why don't you respond to this?
If God is not omnipotent, then why should we believe he was able to create everything. More so, why should we believe he was required? If something not all powerful could create the universe, obviously it did not take an almighty force to do it. Even further, if such a being is not omnipotent, why does he call himself the Almighty, if he is, in fact, not almighty? That would make him a liar. Which means he isn't perfect. And if he is not perfect, what right does he have to punish us for not being so? Extend this to that he supposedly created us and thus any imperfections with us are directly his fault, he is punishing us for his mistakes. Explain how, in any way, this is either fair, moral, or just. I expect this to be ignored since you do not have an answer to this. Also, if this is in fact ignored, it will just prove that you do not read our posts
As my dad once told me: A lot of times when you were growing up, I would tell you not to do something knowing full-well that you would go ahead and do it anyway. But I let you make that choice and face the consequences of your actions.
The difference is that God will never ever save us from the eternal torture and eternal seperation from him. My parents wouldn't let me get myself killed so I would learn a lesson, but if they did it would be a lot more moral than God's principle.
And I don't really have many comments on the main idea of the second link as I don't really care why God created us, but I would like to point out that your article assumes creationism and not evolution. I'm not saying this means you do the same, but if you do, you're denying evidence for something people wrote down thousands of years ago, with no understanding of scientific knowledge and in need of some explanation for their existence. It could be true, but it could easily be false too.
And no offense, but I wish you wouldn't just throw links at me. I'm assuming you didn't write most of these articles, so I'd like to know what you're thinking, not what someone else is thinking. You complain that I skimmed your Book of Life article but you still haven't told me where my question is flawed. And answering the question is probably just a lost cause at this point for you.
By the way, you do realize your second article is saying what we're saying, except leaving out, "If God knew all this would happen, that means he INTENDED for man to sin, knew they would blah blah blah blah, read above posts" How can you not see that, if God is omnipotent, omniscient, that he HAD to have wanted to make us flawed, otherwise we would not be so? Which means he's just, quite simply, a malicious ******* who wants to be worshiped by things lesser than himself?
If God desires it, and it's possible, then why is it not so?
Because you are a sinner and without grace you are not worthy of his presence.
If something not all powerful could create the universe, obviously it did not take an almighty force to do it
And what do you suppose created matter?
Even further, if such a being is not omnipotent
Is omnipotent.
I saw your entire post was based on "but he lacks the power to change it", which is obviously a wrong statement. It simply works off of itself. Should I continue to see if a math student got the answer right if he rounded incorrectly?
Because you are a sinner and without grace you are not worthy of his presence.
So God won't help those most in need then?
And what do you suppose created matter?
I don't know. Doesn't mean I'm going to make up an answer. What do you suppose created God? *God always existed* Then why couldn't matter have always existed? Why is it more likely that a being as complex and contradictory as God always existed but not simply matter.
Is omnipotent.
If such a being is omnipotent, he is not benevolent. If he was, then whence cometh evil?
Because you are a sinner and without grace you are not worthy of his presence.
I'm only without grace because God made me that way. Same with not being worthy of his presence. Now, why would he do that if he truly loved us?
And what do you suppose created matter?
I do not know, but that doesn't mean some supernatural being that no one has any proof of whatsoever did it.
"but he lacks the power to change it",
Then you only read the VERY tip of the iceberg.
Let me sum up for you, yet again, what we've been saying.
1) God created us, yes? He is omnipotent, and omniscient, which means he knows what will happen and can control what will happen.
2) If we are sinners, it is only because God wants us to be. If we are imperfect, it is only because he wants us to be. For what purpose would an omnibenvolent God have in making us flawed?
3) If we are pre-destined to go to hell or heaven, based on how God made us, then that means that God has picked and chosen who is going to be tortured eternally. How is this just or moral?
The difference is that God will never ever save us from the eternal torture and eternal seperation from him. My parents wouldn't let me get myself killed so I would learn a lesson, but if they did it would be a lot more moral than God's principle.
Growing up and eternal ****ation literally have no correspondence.
And I don't really have many comments on the main idea of the second link as I don't really care why God created us, but I would like to point out that your article assumes creationism and not evolution. I'm not saying this means you do the same, but if you do, you're denying evidence for something people wrote down thousands of years ago, with no understanding of scientific knowledge and in need of some explanation for their existence. It could be true, but it could easily be false too.
I can see men make errors. I see men make mistakes that damage the material and eternal lives of others. Just because a man assumes the title "scientist" does not make him free of these faults. Evolution is supposedly proven, but common decent is not.
And no offense, but I wish you wouldn't just throw links at me. I'm assuming you didn't write most of these articles, so I'd like to know what you're thinking, not what someone else is thinking. You complain that I skimmed your Book of Life article but you still haven't told me where my question is flawed. And answering the question is probably just a lost cause at this point for you.
I believe in the bible. I don't think what Men have said, do say, or will say matters. The first time I tried talking to you guys, this is the list of links I got.
Lets just rewind a bit. Please ask your question as simply as possible, with as little fat as possible. If you have multiple questions, please separate them. I don't have my glasses right now and its hard to read.
2) If we are sinners, it is only because God wants us to be. If we are imperfect, it is only because he wants us to be. For what purpose would an omnibenvolent God have in making us flawed?
No, we have the power to overcome sin. We chose not to because we are weak and mortal.
3) If we are pre-destined to go to hell or heaven, based on how God made us, then that means that God has picked and chosen who is going to be tortured eternally. How is this just or moral?
Your future isn't written. God knows what will happen, but it is up to you to decide.
I repeat. Requesting is fine, as long as you accept that you might not receive what you request. Demanding is not.
Yet it was stated that we will get whatever we ask for.
I think I haven't said anything that states that "God directly causes this and that", I did state that "God is ultimately beyond any event happening, at least by designing laws so that they should happen this way". This allows researching anything and everything, as long as you remain in consonance with God's words.
So all these alleged miracles you keep trotting out and rehashing aren't caused by God? I've lost count how many times you've tried to point to something and claimed "God did it" in this thread. Even when we could offer another explanation for that event. As for remaining consonance with God's words this is just being taking blindly without proof. I've already pointed out how that's a bad thing and how it has no place in science.
You have not said "next best" back ther, you said "it is", therefore "the only other way it could be...", THIS is closed-mindedness.
A magician I would say IS preforming an illusion, even if he was really preforming real magic. I base this off previous observations and knowledge of how the trick is done. I wouldn't even need to see the magician preform to come to this conclusion. However that doesn't mean I'm not open to the possibility that it's real magic, I'm just not going to consider it until evidence is provided indicating that's what the magician is actually doing.
Your asking me to accept your claims that it's magic for no reason, I'm just suppose to take your word for it.
This does not mean that God will agree to display you that He is here EVERY TIME you ask.
As pointed out before what ever we ask for will be done. Guess Jesus lied.
Well, there are people who think their grounds are not moving, so debating with them is pointless. But there are still people that are not that sturdy, so providing some evidence of God and His love to them might awaken them and they will believe or at least start to seek God themselves. If there was or will be at least one who would feel his heart move, this debate is not pointless.
can't say I agree with pushing them in that direction, but your right the "fence sitters" on the sidelines are the one's who benefit the most.
