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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

Let me rephrase the question. If my pre-assumptions are incorrect, feel free to correct them.
You've said that God knows what will happen and that it all goes according to his plan. Is God responsible for creating people that would grow up to reject him?


The first, and most prevalent, incorrect assumption is that a person who is destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability. You can prove this to yourself. Determine two possible courses of action. They don't have to be big decisions, just any two possible actions. Assign each action to either "heads" or "tails." Flip the coin and do what whatever course chance decided. You can do this as many times as needed to determine that you do, indeed, have free will. Occasionally, do the opposite of what the coins tell you. Has God prevented you from doing anything? No!

There is so much wrong with what you have been saying, and so many websites that already explain what you are assuming incorrectly, It's hard for me not to just link away.

2 people are also allowed to discuss their different opinions.


Yeah, just hopefully we can get it into the right thread one of these days.
BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

FAIL.

You're position is invalid

Should be "Your".
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

It doesn't matter. Even pastors have to site their verses every time they quote the bible.


Mean like you've been doing?

"The bible says God knows everyones future. The bible says everything God desires is possible."
shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

^
Lol at the Grammar Nazi.

shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

Mean like you've been doing?

"The bible says God knows everyones future. The bible says everything God desires is possible."


You don't believe in the Bible. Why should I extend that courtesy to you if you won't consider the text sacred?
BigP08
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BigP08
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Shepherd

People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God.

I choose not to go to Hell. Now God has the option to send me to Hell. Is he going to?
Even if concede this point of choosing to go to Hell rather than God sending us, consider this. God chose to create us in such a way that we would make this choice, didn't he?
Matt Dillahunty has a good analogy for this one. A mafia boss points a gun at you and says "Give me $100. Don't make me shoot you." If you refuse, you didn't commit suicide. The choice is to be gullible or be tortured forever.

Even if we ignore this analogy, we have a being that can possibly prevent us from being tortured forever. Instead, he's offering a bribe. "Believe without evidence or justification. Worship and adhere to my commands." This isn't benevolent.

You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability.

Bingo. "Within the confines of your personal ability". We're talking about free will within God's abilities. I don't care if I can make a choice if God made me make that choice without my knowing about it. I'm not going to redraw the chain of logic, as it has been drawn multiple times. But we don't send ourselves by not accepting Jesus Christ. The person who is making the choice to either accept Jesus Christ or burn in Hell is sending us to Hell based on that choice.
BigP08
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BigP08
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Shepherd

Lol at the Grammar Nazi.

Eh, it's an OCD kind of thing. I can't help it. :/
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

This thread isn't even about debating. This is not the thread to debate in. This is about how Christianity is awesome, and MageGrayWolf took it upon himself to attack it by posting the first legitimate comment on this thread, which held a very offensive political cartoon.


The cartoon was pointing out pretty much what you guys are saying. it's interesting how displaying just how silly your arguments are is offensive. As for Christianity being awesome, it isn't.

You don't believe in the Bible. Why should I extend that courtesy to you if you won't consider the text sacred?


If your not going to bother every single time why should I? I have no reason to kiss your beliefs back side and say the stuff that comes out smells like fresh bakes cinnamon rolls.
shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

I choose not to go to Hell. Now God has the option to send me to Hell. Is he going to?


Its an A or B option.

Even if concede this point of choosing to go to Hell rather than God sending us, consider this. God chose to create us in such a way that we would make this choice, didn't he?


No, Adam chose to sin. He could have not chosen to sin. He was not destined to sin. Whatever decision he made, God would know the outcome.

"Give me $100. Don't make me shoot you." If you refuse, you didn't commit suicide. The choice is to be gullible or be tortured forever.


Technically it would be your mother saying this, if you really want to make the metaphor about God. Then there is always the option of "Never sin" but that is impossible. It isn't "Give me 100$", its simply "Believe." I'm taking "Gullible" as an insult, as I can call you gullible too.

Bingo. "Within the confines of your personal ability". We're talking about free will within God's abilities. I don't care if I can make a choice if God made me make that choice without my knowing about it.


God will never lead you away from himself. That seems kind of redundant, don't you think? Are you saying that if he were to swing you towards faith, you would be angry at him?

If your not going to bother every single time why should I? I have no reason to kiss your beliefs back side and say the stuff that comes out smells like fresh bakes cinnamon rolls.


Because it offends me. But you hate Christianity as I hate the belief of Common Decent and Atheism. So I guess the most civil thing to do is stop talking to each other. Go and have the last word.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Nomad

I wouldn't expect him to. But you'd think, that, just once, he'd at least do SOMETHING.
He does something, and even more, it's that we don't usually see Him doing that. For me, there was time when I thought the same, but I looked to my past and found out that there were numerous events that were unusual, and all of them were pretty much crucial for my future life.
If God has planned out everything from the beginning, which I'm assuming is your belief since you have defended a perfect God (correct me if I'm wrong), how can our prayers have any effect or even matter if God already planned out everything?
I think He did outline everything, and He has many candidates to do each task He requires us to do. It's up to us to choose whether we will do His will, or do against it, each time we choose to not to do according to His will, He can find someone else to do the same, but this choice is what we call a sin. Sometimes we don't know that we're choosing like that, say if we choose which way should we go somewhere, left or right, provided they both will eventually lead us to where we want, because the choices seem to not do anything briefly bad. In this case our choice might have consequences that will affect someone else going alongside us, in a matter we cannot predict. But then we don't commit sins, because the "right" way to go is unknown to us, and it might be that we went exactly the right way while not being aware of it.

Basically BigP08, you're wrong in saying that everything is predetermined. The outline of events might be so, to a certain extent, for example in case of WWII there was a warning in Fatima, that "if the world won't repent, there will be a greater war starting in the times of Pius XI", so we as a society can affect even the world-scale events.
But if God doesn't reveal himself to the non-believers, they will not believe, and he knows this. If they continue to be non-believers, regardless of how good or bad they were in the world, he will condemn them to a place where they will be tortured forever.
Hell is bad for us in the long run, from what I hear. So it would be nice to answer this kind of prayer, if he exists.
In the long run, you are right, and it's the very reason why we pray for conversion of the poor sinners. But there is at least one moment of unknown, when the person is about to die. We do not know what happens at that moment, but some people do convert at the verge of death, and even the relatives receive the info that they were saved as a result. There are not many of such events made public, I can cite one that makes me happy - Jean Baptiste Marie Vianney, the famous French priest, once contacted a woman who came to Ars to consult him, seeing her in the crowd, and said "He was saved". She asked "What did you say?" and he replied "He had enough time between the bridge and the water surface to repent his sin. Virgin Mary asked for this grace to be granted to him.", and added "In May he and you together prayed a Hail Mary before her image. Do you remember that? She then requested God for repentance for him. But play for him, he's waiting for your prayers in purgatory." She had no time to say a thing to him about this situation, while everything he said was true.
Did God create Hell? (Yes)
No, it's we who created Hell.
You need to understand that everyone disobey's God, whether they like it or not. Only by faith and grace will you be forgiven.
Indeed, be it in the slightest. We can avoid larger mistakes, but we cannot avoid any and all small mistake there could be. A large mistake, made intentionally and when fully aware of the consequences, is a mortal sin. Anything amiss, and it's a "normal" sin which does not make a person end in Hell if unrepented. And if a person will sin gravely, and not repent, the darkness he created in his heart will consume him. Still, there is place for God's grace to grant someone repentance.
Man is not judged by anything that is in the sealed Book of Life.
There is a &quotersonal" book of life that holds all the person's intentions, actions, thoughts and other stuff, which will be opened at that person's death, and by that book he will be judged. You Shift4101 can read the details in Gloria Polo's testimonial, I think it will be interestring for you.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

wow people, you have made 50 posts while I was searching the book for the account of JMV and the woman. And since I'm about to go out for lunch, I hope you won't be that quick again, or will point me something I should answer to.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

its simply "Believe." I'm taking "Gullible" as an insult, as I can call you gullible too.


Since your simply believing with any verifiable evidence supporting it this makes it gullible. You just accepting the guy who wants to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge legally can. We aren't taking his claim at face value and want something we can first verify this claim before we fork over our money.

Because it offends me. But you hate Christianity as I hate the belief of Common Decent and Atheism. So I guess the most civil thing to do is stop talking to each other. Go and have the last word.


I don't particularly care if you find it offensive and common decent isn't a belief, it's a theory which is tied in with evolution.
BigP08
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BigP08
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Shepherd

Its an A or B option.

You understand that after death everyone believes in God. So this problem of not accepting Jesus goes away if he is willing to take non-believers who were good people into heaven. Why must I force myself to believe in God when I have absolutely no reason to? I didn't do anything morally wrong, I just didn't know whether or not he exists.
He was not destined to sin. Whatever decision he made, God would know the outcome.

You continually contradict yourself. God knew the outcome, so he was destined to sin. God punished him for something that he knew Adam would do. He knew Adam would do it because he created Adam in such a way that he would do it. And God knows everything, so he knew what he was doing.
Technically it would be your mother saying this, if you really want to make the metaphor about God. Then there is always the option of "Never sin" but that is impossible. It isn't "Give me 100$", its simply "Believe." I'm taking "Gullible" as an insult, as I can call you gullible too.

The analogy isn't going to be the exact same senario or it wouldn't be an analogy. God is asking atheists to accept something that their brains aren't wired to accept without evidence, and he is going to let us get tortured if we don't while washing his hands from the guilt. This whole idea is completely immoral and messed up.
God will never lead you away from himself. That seems kind of redundant, don't you think? Are you saying that if he were to swing you towards faith, you would be angry at him?

No. I'm saying that if God were to swing me away from faith, I would be angry at him for punishing me for it with eternal torture. God leads atheists away from him by wiring them to desire evidence over blind gullibility. Then he tells them they chose to be tortured forever by not knowing that he existed. That's what I'd get angry about.
But you hate Christianity as I hate the belief of Common Decent and Atheism.

I used to be like that as well. It's really a lot easier to understand and respond to the points we're making if you try not to hate us so much (I'm not even an Atheist).
He does something, and even more, it's that we don't usually see Him doing that. For me, there was time when I thought the same, but I looked to my past and found out that there were numerous events that were unusual, and all of them were pretty much crucial for my future life.

Well, it's useless if he does something and we don't see him doing it. We want proof that we should waste our precious time on earth worshipping the invisible man in the sky.
Basically BigP08, you're wrong in saying that everything is predetermined.

If God is perfect, then everything is predetermined. Take your pick. It doesn't matter if God's will can happen regardless of what we choose because God KNOWS what we will choose. That's what predetermination is. If God doesn't know what we will choose, then he's not perfect.
In the long run, you are right, and it's the very reason why we pray for conversion of the poor sinners. But there is at least one moment of unknown, when the person is about to die. We do not know what happens at that moment, but some people do convert at the verge of death, and even the relatives receive the info that they were saved as a result. There are not many of such events made public, I can cite one that makes me happy - Jean Baptiste Marie Vianney, the famous French priest, once contacted a woman who came to Ars to consult him, seeing her in the crowd, and said "He was saved". She asked "What did you say?" and he replied "He had enough time between the bridge and the water surface to repent his sin. Virgin Mary asked for this grace to be granted to him.", and added "In May he and you together prayed a Hail Mary before her image. Do you remember that? She then requested God for repentance for him. But play for him, he's waiting for your prayers in purgatory." She had no time to say a thing to him about this situation, while everything he said was true.

But those who are just being logical by not accepting God without evidence aren't evil, are they? Why should they be punished if they die without belief in God?
No, it's we who created Hell.

God created us, God knows everything, God knew we would create Hell, God created Hell.


I've laid out the chain several times. I will try one more time. Don't assert that I'm wrong. Don't quote me and say "No, God doesn't send us to Hell." Tell me WHY. That's very very VERY important.

God is perfect, all-powerful, and timeless. So he knows what we will do all our lives before we are even born.
God sets the standard for going to heaven or going to Hell.
God creates each of us individually, therefore knowing whether or not we will go to heaven and what it would take to convince us to meet his standards.
Therefore, anyone that goes to Hell has gone there because God created them to be tortured forever and chose to never save them. God sent them to a place of eternal torment.

Again, don't just assert that I am wrong about a point. Tell me why this chain is incorrect. And DON'T tell me that we have a choice. God still let us accidently and ignorantly make the choice that led to him torturing us forever, and he created us knowing we would make that choice. If he wanted to, he could wire our brain to accept him rather than reject him in the given environment. He just wants us to accidently burn in Hell forever.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

If God is perfect, then everything is predetermined. Take your pick.
Explain.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

He does something, and even more, it's that we don't usually see Him doing that.


"I think I haven't said anything that states that "God directly causes this and that""

But then we don't commit sins, because the "right" way to go is unknown to us, and it might be that we went exactly the right way while not being aware of it.


Since we don't know what the right direction is, assuming there is a God, it's just as likely he wants us all to be atheists. It would explain why he remains so mysteriously hidden to the point of seeming non existent. It does so far better than that weak "free will" argument given we can still exert free will even with irrefutable evidence. We could still accept or deny that being as God despite the evidence (you guys have been rejecting evolution despite the irrefutable evidence) or even if we accept him as such, we might not like the way he does things and still decide to turn away.
This would also explain why we have so many different religions and variations there in. It could all just be made up by people or some sort of test God is putting you through to see who can actually use the brains he gave us to their furthest extent instead of just accepting things without reason.

No, it's we who created Hell.


Yep just like we did with heaven and God.

Anyway from a more Biblical perspective wasn't hell created by God for the devil to dwell in?

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
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