I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done. I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
MageGrayWolf is right, because science is obviously easier to understand, (I may be byast because I'm Atheistic yet the rest of my family is Christian. I'm forced to go to church and I simply sleep through all that "Hallelujah, praise the Lord!" crap.) many people know that science is definitely more reality-based while Christianity/Judaism is more about making people think that everybody that doesn't go to church is Satanic and stuff. (Obviously a load of bull) This makes people feel better about their crappy office job. Personally, I'd trust someone who is generous because of their integrity more than someone who expects to be rewarded after death! So, you decide: Reality, or pretend that you will be saved from nothingness.
Awesomesauce806, you prove nothing by saying that, you went over it aggressively from what I could tell, and you just posted this loosely related to the topic, what? Was you hoping to achieve something? This has been going on for 299 pages, you sparked me to type for 1 minute, and probably further ruined yours / our name?
Gee, thanks.
Onto the miracle of Fatima, whilst there is plenty of witness relocations of the event, I'm still unsure what exactly happened. I think it's safe to say that there is a logical explanation for why this happened and not to blame a deity, although a spinning disk in the sky is... very interesting.
Basically, less than half instead of "not all" but they exist and they are numerous.
It's difficult trying to wage a debate when there's several different stories, methods and etc in each version :/
Well, for a believer there is more to support religion than for the atheist, so an atheist cannot objectively measure the groungs of a believer's support, and mistakingly evaluates them as being less than his own, while for the believer it's still more. I expect that both the opponents are closed-minded in such a case.
But the thing is that faith accounts for nothing, in any logical basis. Anyone who thinks it counts as more or even equal to reason must be insane or severely indoctrinated. Faith does nothing except illogically empower your belief in anything, and generally people have one or the other - "Faith" or "Reason"? Once they pick Faith they lose a fundamental element to being a better person, it's really that simple.
I expect that both the opponents are closed-minded in such a case.
Some atheists might be, but I've made an effort to understand and furthermore an effort to make sure others understand what I'm saying, I can't say I understand the feeling of comfort for an after life or that a deity is watching over me, but is there a need to be? The priority is the truth, and I can safely say that the Big Bang has more going for it in that case. But, I should say that the miracle of Fatima has got me stumped - 30,000-100,000 witnesses? I think I may try to research more to possibly clarify what happened.
but yes this theory is one mean approach to a concept of "God of atheists".
Not necessarily, I honestly can see it like that - I don't really hold an opinion on deities and what they actually are, because there's so many aspects to consider, so when a few are coupled together I can make something out of it, but even so, I don't really keep it in the front of my head.
MageGrayWolf is right, because science is obviously easier to understand, (I may be byast because I'm Atheistic yet the rest of my family is Christian. I'm forced to go to church and I simply sleep through all that "Hallelujah, praise the Lord!" crap.) many people know that science is definitely more reality-based while Christianity/Judaism is more about making people think that everybody that doesn't go to church is Satanic and stuff. (Obviously a load of bull) This makes people feel better about their crappy office job. Personally, I'd trust someone who is generous because of their integrity more than someone who expects to be rewarded after death! So, you decide: Reality, or pretend that you will be saved from nothingness.
You're judging the entire Christian population? Well that's smart. Not every Christian attends church. I do not. I view church as man made. Now if a congregation decided to go sit in the park and pray and have discussions about the word of God, that i would do. When i led my Bible group a couple of summers ago, that is what i did, because churches didn't exist the way they do now when Christianity was created.
Aside from that. A lot of people take pride into going to church. Just because you or i find it bored, does not mean it is 100% "Crap", it's just "Crap" to those who deem it. So you shouldn't generalize and assume everyone has the same opinion as you.
Where is your source for every Christian thinking not attending mass is Satanic? ... Yeah didn't think so.
Not every single Christian is generous to get into Heaven, believe it or not, some Christians are good people too. It's not just Atheists.
If you want an actual religious debate, i suggest jumping down off your high horse, then we'll talk.
I'm forced to go to church and I simply sleep through all that "Hallelujah, praise the Lord!" crap.)
Might I suggest taking a pen and note pad with you. Then you can write down the things you find questionable that's being said and do research on it later. You can understand some of the history and form some pretty good arguments this way.
I think it's safe to say that there is a logical explanation for why this happened and not to blame a deity, although a spinning disk in the sky is... very interesting.
Something to keep in mind about that is it was only seen locally. Unusual atmospheric conditions can produce such an illusion of the sun moving, which is likely is what happened here. Vesper keeps ignoring/denying this and continuing to claim magic and that it's unexplainable. In fact he's done this with pretty much every miracle he's toted out. This is one reason I'm pretty well sick of him.
Fatima we've gone over...at least 4 seperate times that I can think of...
Awesomesauce, if you don't want to go to church, present why you don't believe in it to your parents and ask that you be allowed to choose for yourself what to believe, and that being forced to go to chruch will not make you believe, it will just make you mad that your parents do not respect you and your ability to judge for yourself what you do/do not believe.
Awesomesauce, if you don't want to go to church, present why you don't believe in it to your parents and ask that you be allowed to choose for yourself what to believe, and that being forced to go to chruch will not make you believe, it will just make you mad that your parents do not respect you and your ability to judge for yourself what you do/do not believe.
Depending on the situation that's not always a good idea. Do this if you think your parents can handle it. Even then this sort of conversation could turn into a huge fight or worse.
Depending on the situation that's not always a good idea. Do this if you think your parents can handle it. Even then this sort of conversation could turn into a huge fight or worse.
Depending on the parents yeah I suppose it will vary. I did this with my parents when I was ~10-11 and it pretty much ended with my mom saying okay I didn't have to go and my dad saying i'll end up in hell. I didn't have to go to church anymore though.
My family doesn't go to church anymore either. But my mom is still deeply religous and my grandma is too. My sister stoped taking church classes and I finished them all. We all pray every night though. Well except for my dad. Then again I'm not sure if he's even christian.
That Fatima thing didn't have a video or photographic evidence? Oh and if your still a Christian Atheists don't mind it's the in your face your going to hell Christians that are our biggest annoyance. And where in the bible does it say that Atheists are going to hell? Thanks, Snake
That Fatima thing didn't have a video or photographic evidence?
There are still photographs however they don't really provide any evidence to help support the claims. In fact some of the photographic evidence seems to put into question the number of people who saw this event. The pictures of the sun are just that. We have no frame of reference to work from to determine something odd is happening there.
But the thing is that faith accounts for nothing, in any logical basis. Anyone who thinks it counts as more or even equal to reason must be insane or severely indoctrinated. Faith does nothing except illogically empower your belief in anything, and generally people have one or the other - "Faith" or "Reason"? Once they pick Faith they lose a fundamental element to being a better person, it's really that simple.
Oh... You might underestimate the power of personal experience over the one who actually experienced this. It's like with a proverb "The scalded dog fears cold water", in terms of attraction instead of fear, or it's like what happened to Apostle Paul so he got converted. MGW once said that he disregards personal experience as objective evidence, but subjectively they can amount enough strength to overcome any "reason" provided by those who don't believe.
Vesper keeps ignoring/denying this and continuing to claim magic and that it's unexplainable.
Um. I actually accepted that not being worldwide, though I have provided evidence about it beind visible from area wide enough to exceed the normal limitations of sundogs' area of visibility. And you are too constantly ignoring/denying MY arguments.
There are still photographs however they don't really provide any evidence to help support the claims. In fact some of the photographic evidence seems to put into question the number of people who saw this event. The pictures of the sun are just that. We have no frame of reference to work from to determine something odd is happening there.
Unfortunately they are not enough, although that pic of a sun provides an interesting detail you seem to miss - the sun's disk is darker than the surrounding sky. How come?
Oh... You might underestimate the power of personal experience over the one who actually experienced this. It's like with a proverb "The scalded dog fears cold water", in terms of attraction instead of fear, or it's like what happened to Apostle Paul so he got converted. MGW once said that he disregards personal experience as objective evidence, but subjectively they can amount enough strength to overcome any "reason" provided by those who don't believe.
The reason why we can't accept personal evidence is because then we would have to accept everything we hear and that would just be stupid. And why does the Fatima only exist for those who saw it and not for me? Am I not special? Or what about other Christians? Are they not special enough? Are you not special enough?
Vesper keeps ignoring/denying this and continuing to claim magic and that it's unexplainable.
Sorry about that person he seems to think that just because people who debate good on the Atheist's side makes him able to be rude and arrogant I'm truly sorry. And could you please link me to that picture of the sun's disk please? Thanks, Snake.
Here. I expect it'll stretch the page layout so I don't post it as an image.
It will just put a scroll bar on the image instead of stretch the layout.
I didn't read the discussion about the Fatima thing. Maybe I'll do it when I'm bored. But could it be that the halo of the sun was in fact a sun dog?
Yes, it's even possible it was nothing more than power of suggestion. In this situation we have a large group of people all preconditioned to expect to see something. Just get one person to say "hey the sun looks kinda funny" and let the fish story build from there.
