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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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sirmed2
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sirmed2
165 posts
Scribe

Mage Gray Wolf is just an idiot. Don't listen to him.

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Mage Gray Wolf is just an idiot. Don't listen to him.


I'm guessing this means you have no counter whatsoever to his argument, so you're just attacking the person behind that argument in an attempt to protect your own unfounded beliefs, am I right?
Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

Mage Gray Wolf is just an idiot. Don't listen to him.


This barely even qualifies as an Ad Hominem argument and is, frankly, just ignorance and/or trolling. Mage has contributed a million times more to this thread than you have and you've provided nothing to refute any of the arguments he's made. It appears to me that you, friend, are the idiot.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Mage Gray Wolf is just an idiot. Don't listen to him.


Well darn, I guess that shoots down everything I've said till now. I guess the only thing I have left to come back with is this.

You Have Been Trolled
balerion07
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balerion07
2,837 posts
Peasant

That is just amazing.

Dregus2
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Dregus2
492 posts
Blacksmith

Mage Gray Wolf is just an idiot. Don't listen to him.


I could have sworn I already posted something about this. Oh well, since you obviously have just made the stupidest remark I have seen so far, and MGW is the most contributive person I know and all his arguments make sense. Unlike what you just said. Sooooooooo.... don't do that.
Sssssnnaakke
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Sssssnnaakke
1,036 posts
Scribe

Is it just me or does every atheist win because the Theist doesn't have proof of God's existence and the Atheist has proof that what they believe in is wrong? Anyways I would just like to say things about open mindedness... soon I need to go lol

Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

I actually missed the times when I could go to the WEPR, look at a few threads and middle-click them to make a new window, knowing that something note worthy will be there.
Over the last few months, aside from this thread (which I've not been keeping track of anyway), there has been NOTHING interesting to talk about and I come back here only to see it's decayed into this repetitive wheel of worthless debate :/

I think once we hit the 300 page mark this could be closed, but at least be properly archived or sticky'd so that this constant round of debate can be studied by people with the same questions / answers, so that this need not happen again... for the most part.

Good luck guys, hope to see you around sometime. :/

- H

Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
1,482 posts
Shepherd

there has been NOTHING interesting to talk about and I come back here only to see it's decayed into this repetitive wheel of worthless debate :/


I know exactly what you mean! It is a scary pattern.
Maybe sticky a 'Religion Vs. Atheism' thread? Idk.
And yeah, I used to use this site's forums + reddit, but I'm coming to AG a lot less since there's nothing good being posted to talk about.


But now.. you've given a challenge. We have to get to 300.
Mage, I disagree with everything you're telling me because there are books and stuff that say evolution is wrong since donkeys can't turn into bears and stuff.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Yep Highfire, this debate seems to be stagnant in a rather small circle. Theist: "God exists (optional evidence)". Atheist: Your arguments are wrong (optional reasoning), and "God does not exist" (optional BoP thrown). Theist: (Bible reference). Atheist: (circular reference pic). Theist: (a miracle report, with optional references and docs). Atheist: "It can be explained (optional way to explain, no details)" - in this case, some scientific debate starts, both usually remain unconvinced, with last words being from atheist "You're closed-minded". Theist: (a philosophical approach). Atheist: (Monty Python reference) - mainly because out of arguments.

The only one conclusion so far that have been accepted by both sides of the argument was "God, if exists, contradicts binary logic" which is translated to "God contradicts binary logic" for theist, and "God does not exist or contradicts binary logic" for atheist. This implies "One cannot either prove or disprove God's existence by logical means". Other attempts done by me were directed to make an opponent contemplate different questions that could only be approached philosophically. But so far they were either grounded towards science and logic (thus rendering the argument useless due to the above) or shifted into absurd.

About sticking - IIRC RvA thread appeared on the first page several times, with constantly deleted last post, and was eventually flagged as [nec] and locked. Stickying this - I'd rather say yes.

Is it just me or does every atheist win because the Theist doesn't have proof of God's existence and the Atheist has proof that what they believe in is wrong? Anyways I would just like to say things about open mindedness...
You know what, one has to define what IS open-mindedness and closed-mindedness. So far I was accused of closed-mindedness several times within this thread, while being able to clearly support my position from both scientific and philosophical sides. Also, what kind of proof you speak of? Evolution? Covered, accepted as not contradicting the belief.
Jefferysinspiration
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Jefferysinspiration
3,139 posts
Farmer

Probably already discussed, as mentioned above considering we're near the 300 page mark, the arguments are going in circles.

The OP mentions Christ and how he died.
So hopefully this is a refreshing argument.
Regardless of him being the Son of God to the Christians, and just some man to the Athiests: we'll more focus on the Athiest view point here.

What do you think about his death? Not in religious terms as such, but his actual death.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

What do you think about his death? Not in religious terms as such, but his actual death.


From what I can gather of the possible existence of a historical Jesus he likely orchestrated his own death in order to become a martyr.
Jefferysinspiration
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Jefferysinspiration
3,139 posts
Farmer

From what I can gather of the possible existence of a historical Jesus he likely orchestrated his own death in order to become a martyr.


Ooo, good viewpoint, what makes you think this?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Ooo, good viewpoint, what makes you think this?


There is evidence of a much earlier story that nearly mirrors Jesus. This story creates the idea that for someone to be the true messiah, they must die. If there was a historical Jesus he would have likely been influenced by this story. So if he wanted to set himself up to be the messiah or even truly believe he was, he would have had it in his head that he needed to die in order to fulfill this goal.
Also one of the parts that usually are regarded as actual historical events from the Bible when it comes to Jesus is the rampage through the market place. Doing this and given his status would have surly gotten him a death sentence and it's likely he would have known it would. So from a historical view it's believed Jesus had this ulterior motive for doing this.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

with last words being from atheist "You're closed-minded".

I see bias. ^^

mainly because out of arguments.

Mainly because out of arguments? Philosophy doesn't take absolute truth, proof or evidence. I've argued a few times that if God were real, he is evil or at least not perfect.

Trying to spark that we're using immature responses is a poor argument in itself, considering that I'm nearly certain that we've cleared every line of text relevant to the debate with a well-thought out response.

This implies "One cannot either prove or disprove God's existence by logical means".

Which is a cover to him not being real.
Right now I've no reason to believe he's real, rather than countless people - many of which I know have been indoctrinated, saying he is. It's essentially the same as a conspiracy theory.

that could only be approached philosophically.

Which is more or less irrelevant to the main topic, though. To me, philosophy can't be proven, nor disproven - if you say it's wrong to kill, what actually PROVES that rather than the subjective measurement of how much worth is someones life, relative to say... the costs to keep them alive ?
Most people (and I) would say it is wrong to kill to save food / finances, but I wouldn't be surprised if others disagree, and we can't really prove them wrong, can we?

If it is a philosophy brought by the Bible or by "God", then I'm sure it can already be obtained by other means that follow a more logical approach.

thus rendering the argument useless due to the above

Said this before on this thread I'll say it again - don't generalize Atheists, I'm not gonna do that, and neither has others.

Stickying this - I'd rather say yes.

As would I.

one has to define what IS open-mindedness and closed-mindedness.

Again, philosophical, but in this case it could bare something useful.

Open-mindedness is the capability to accept something with reliable evidence / proof, with the ability to maintain distance in terms of how much you folow this, for preparation of another possibility. On the other hand, it doesn't mean you're open to things without logic or reason (Openmindedness =/= Naive), you can be just as stubborn against a point as the next person - open-mindedness and closed-mindedness are more or less what you're going to argue against.

Closed-mindedness is the unreasonable distrust / hate / refusal of things. In this case it would apply to religious people being unable to accept a fact or near-100% proven theory, that has more ground than a religious stance, or an Atheist not keeping perspective that explanations > cheesy remarks, and goes with the latter.

So far I was accused of closed-mindedness several times within this thread,

You've been at this for more than 200 pages, it doesn't surprise me.

while being able to clearly support my position from both scientific and philosophical sides

I've not been around for much of this threads time, but I'm sure some people would disagree. Are there pages / arguments in particular that you think have remained unanswered?

Evolution? Covered, accepted as not contradicting the belief.

This is another thing :/
What is the belief though? Not all Christians believe the world is 6,000 years old, yet they still believe that God is watching over them and they will burn in eternal hell if they are (to God) "bad people".

So hopefully this is a refreshing argument.

It is to me :P

- H
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