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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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darkangel12341
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darkangel12341
111 posts
Nomad

I feel like religion is a tool used to explain the unknown, or previously unknown. We have no proof that there is no higher power, nore do we have proof that there is.

BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

If we weren't, we would be like the animals in the field. God's image is intelligence, self-awareness, and sinlessness.

Do the animals in the field get tortured forever? If not, I'd say they've got it pretty good compared to us. We have to pass the ultimate test contraversial to knowledge, moral, and rationale. We simply worship the correct god of the many religions or get tortured forever if we picked the wrong one.
You either worship him and be eternally happy, or perish. Are you requesting a middle ground?

Again, why does God need to be worshipped to consider not torturing us? And if he does need to be worshipped, why not REVEAL HIMSELF to us so we have a better chance of giving him what he wants?
shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

If not, I'd say they've got it pretty good compared to us.


If you would like to be an animal, feel free to give yourself a lobotomy.

We simply worship the correct god of the many religions or get tortured forever if we picked the wrong one.


There is a reason, how unwilling you are to understand it, why no one is defending any other religions except the God of Judaism. (except for a single muslim, but he hasn't even been in this thread.)

You keep jumping to toture. You are being sent to hell, where you shall burn for all eternity. No one is torturing you. (Except maybe the devil, I don't know) Just no one is preventing you from being tortured.

If he revealed himself, we wouldn't have faith, which would remove the point of sending us to the Earth to be tempted, so that our praise is worth something to him. You could make 50 machines to tell you that you are a great person, but they would not compare to a friend who knows you saying "You are great." (You could have also paid him/her to say this, but would it have felt the same?)
BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

If you would like to be an animal, feel free to give yourself a lobotomy.

I'm saying if your god is going to torture me forever for not knowing he exists, I would rather be an animal. You're missing the point (again).
Just no one is preventing you from being tortured.

So what? There's still torture and God's still putting me there. It doesn't matter if he's doing the torturing, or if anyone is doing the torturing. I think it's immoral for God to fail to prevent eternal torture for a finite crime.
If he revealed himself, we wouldn't have faith, which would remove the point of sending us to the Earth to be tempted, so that our praise is worth something to him.

He doesn't have to tell us he is good. He could just reveal himself and take credit for his works. Then we could still decide whether or not we want to WORSHIP him, which is the whole point, isn't it? If your father hid from you your whole life, and you never worshipped him, would he be justified to let you get tortured forever? No!
"You are great."

For me to say this, first I have to know he exists. How am I supposed to know that he exists? Why is faith a requirement? What kind of god requires faith instead of evidence? If you're trying to determine which god is real and what you should believe, faith is not the way to do it. You CANNOT do it by faith, because faith tells you nothing. Faith is gullibility. Faith is guessing that the myth that's most comfortable to you is the truth. If God is going to continue to trick us into thinking that he doesn't exist, then we CANNOT be held accountable for not believing without evidence or any justification. That's absolutely insane.
Dregus2
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Dregus2
492 posts
Blacksmith

Oh boy! More religion class for me today! And I'm sorry but there really isn't anything I can say not off-topic right now.

shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

I'm saying if your god is going to torture me forever for not knowing he exists, I would rather be an animal. You're missing the point (again).


No, I was being a smartass. Your existence revolves around Him. Not you. If you do not live to serve him, you will be cast off, away from him, where the Devil will take you and place you in hell. It is that simple.

So what? There's still torture and God's still putting me there. It doesn't matter if he's doing the torturing, or if anyone is doing the torturing. I think it's immoral for God to fail to prevent eternal torture for a finite crime.


Atheistic life is a line segment.
Christian life is not a line, it is a ray. And you can point that ray in two directions, up or down. Your time on Earth is brief, but it is just enough time to determine which way that point is facing before the actual line begins.

He doesn't have to tell us he is good. He could just reveal himself and take credit for his works. Then we could still decide whether or not we want to WORSHIP him, which is the whole point, isn't it? If your father hid from you your whole life, and you never worshipped him, would he be justified to let you get tortured forever? No!


Nobody will refuse to believe in someone that will give you eternal happiness. To be more clear, I have never met a Christian that doesn't have faith because he doesn't like God.

For me to say this, first I have to know he exists. How am I supposed to know that he exists?


You have faith on earth, and when you arrive in heaven, hopefully it will be fairly obvious.

You CANNOT do it by faith, because faith tells you nothing.


FAITH has a base. The base is the Bible. I have faith, in the God of the Bible. I don't have faith in faith.

Let me remind you, if I may reference the works of Descrates, "Cogito ergo sum". You don't know anything, except one thing. When you see something, regardless of what it is, could be a million different things. For you to believe in evidence sounds just as silly as me believing in a Book.
BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

If you do not live to serve him, you will be cast off, away from him, where the Devil will take you and place you in hell. It is that simple.

Is this an example of God's omnibenevolence?
Atheistic life is a line segment.
Christian life is not a line, it is a ray. And you can point that ray in two directions, up or down. Your time on Earth is brief, but it is just enough time to determine which way that point is facing before the actual line begins.

Nice analogy. It fails to address my point. Do you think it's moral for God to let someone be tortured forever for a finite crime?
Nobody will refuse to believe in someone that will give you eternal happiness. To be more clear, I have never met a Christian that doesn't have faith because he doesn't like God.

Then God doesn't have to tell us that part either. He can make it simple: these are the things I've done for you. Do you love me for this?
God has instead gone with option B: guess that I'm here or I'll let you be tortured forever.
You have faith on earth, and when you arrive in heaven, hopefully it will be fairly obvious.

Again, faith tells you nothing. I asked how to know that he exists. So to know that God exists, I have to assume that God exists and believe that God exists, and then I'll believe in him? How about an actual reason?
FAITH has a base. The base is the Bible. I have faith, in the God of the Bible. I don't have faith in faith.

It doesn't matter what you have faith in. Faith still tells you nothing. Just because it's in a book doesn't make it true, especially when most other religions are backed by books too. Faith doesn't help you distinguish between the truth of these.
For you to believe in evidence sounds just as silly as me believing in a Book.

That's because you want it to sound just as silly. Evidence has proven reliable. We base our proofs and scientific facts (with the assumption that we might be wrong) based on the most reliable method we have for determining what is true. And it has proven to evolve our society into the 21st century. Religion has not proven to do anything other than tell you to believe without a reason.
And don't tell me that the reason is faith. Faith is not a reason. Faith is believing without a reason.

You continue to assume that faith has some demonstrably real reliability. You're guessing that faith is reliable, but you don't know. Why don't you know? Because faith cannot be proven reliable. Why, then, should we assume that it is? Why should we have faith in something that could have easily been made up?
Why shouldn't we have faith in the invisible magic fairy that lives in my underwear drawer? It has just as much evidence, and it takes faith to believe in it as well. It will let you get tortured forever if you don't believe in it.
You don't know anything, except one thing. When you see something, regardless of what it is, could be a million different things.

So even if the people who wrote the Bible weren't lying, couldn't this mean that they were delusional when they saw these visions? The Bible is supposedly based on eye-witness testimony, right? If we're going to dismiss evidence, why are we agreeing with supposed eye-witness testimony, when it could have been a lie, and it just as likely to be a mistake even if it wasn't a lie?
dair5
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dair5
3,371 posts
Shepherd

No offense shift but you don't seem to be arguing your point very well. Why would god send someone to hell for not beliving in him. What about people who've never heard of him? And what about those who won't belive in him because they were brought up beliving in another god? And then there are those who don't belive in him but were still great people in the world.

shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

Is this an example of God's omnibenevolence?


Should he work so that you might live for an eternity? He gives us each a chance. Life is not like America, there are no infinite chances.

Nice analogy. It fails to address my point. Do you think it's moral for God to let someone be tortured forever for a finite crime?


No, I believe God gives us a chance. And when we succeed, he orders us to go and give other people more chances. If you fail to take advantage of any of these chances, and God is done with you, you are cast off, away from him, where the Devil takes you and places you in hell.

Then God doesn't have to tell us that part either. He can make it simple: these are the things I've done for you. Do you love me for this?
God has instead gone with option B: guess that I'm here or I'll let you be tortured forever.


You seem to be assuming that our lives have no purpose other than to guide lost sheep back to the Lord. We need to be tested, or else he would simply make billions of us in Heaven to worship him. Is a kingdom of Men more impressive than a kingdom of ants?

That's because you want it to sound just as silly. Evidence has proven reliable. We base our proofs and scientific facts (with the assumption that we might be wrong) based on the most reliable method we have for determining what is true. And it has proven to evolve our society into the 21st century. Religion has not proven to do anything other than tell you to believe without a reason.
And don't tell me that the reason is faith. Faith is not a reason. Faith is believing without a reason.


I seem to have failed to link to the wiki page explaining what I said. Cogito Ergo Sum

So even if the people who wrote the Bible weren't lying, couldn't this mean that they were delusional when they saw these visions? The Bible is supposedly based on eye-witness testimony, right? If we're going to dismiss evidence, why are we agreeing with supposed eye-witness testimony, when it could have been a lie, and it just as likely to be a mistake even if it wasn't a lie?
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No, I never said to dismiss evidence. I'm choosing not to accept all evidence, like yourself. I just have chosen the other evidence, and you are rebuking me for it.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

FAITH has a base. The base is the Bible. I have faith, in the God of the Bible. I don't have faith in faith.


This is still baseless as you have to accept the claims in the Bible without proof.

No, I believe God gives us a chance. And when we succeed, he orders us to go and give other people more chances. If you fail to take advantage of any of these chances, and God is done with you, you are cast off, away from him, where the Devil takes you and places you in hell.


Considering God isn't equipping you with what's needed for this task then it's hardly giving us a chance.

No, I never said to dismiss evidence. I'm choosing not to accept all evidence, like yourself. I just have chosen the other evidence, and you are rebuking me for it.


Which is why you get led in inaccurate and false directions.
BigP08
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BigP08
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Shepherd

Should he work so that you might live for an eternity? He gives us each a chance. Life is not like America, there are no infinite chances.

If he actually cares, he should. Besides, how much work is it for an all-powerful God? What is he doing if not trying to lead us to heaven?
No, I believe God gives us a chance. And when we succeed, he orders us to go and give other people more chances. If you fail to take advantage of any of these chances, and God is done with you, you are cast off, away from him, where the Devil takes you and places you in hell.

You continue to miss the point. I don't care if God gives us a chance. Do you think it's moral to let us get tortured forever for a finite crime? Don't respond long-windedly, because you keep dodging the question. Just a simple "Yes" or "No".

If the "No" at the beginning of that paragraph was your answer to that question, then you therefore don't think that what God does is moral.
You seem to be assuming that our lives have no purpose other than to guide lost sheep back to the Lord. We need to be tested, or else he would simply make billions of us in Heaven to worship him. Is a kingdom of Men more impressive than a kingdom of ants?

Why do we need to be tested? God is playing a cruel game with us. Do we make the completely illogical choice of assuming that this God, among the many other gods, is the one to worship, and go to heaven? Or do we get tortured forever for picking the wrong god or picking no god? That's not a fair test. Why does he need to test us if he knows what we're going to do? He's just watching us squirm and putting us through pain, and then eternally disposing of some of us forever.
If God isn't spending all of his time and power trying to guide us to heaven, then he doesn't love us.
Let's try this a philisophical one. Why is God good?
No, I never said to dismiss evidence. I'm choosing not to accept all evidence, like yourself. I just have chosen the other evidence, and you are rebuking me for it.

The Bible is NOT evidence. The Bible is a claim that requires evidence but does not have it.
Let's suppose I came over to you and said, "I saw a magic unicorn that will torture us forever if we don't spend three hours a day praying to it." You ask me for some evidence. I tell you, "Well, I wrote it down." Do you believe me? Of course not.
That's exactly what the Bible is, except in the Bible you don't know for sure who's making the claim. People wrote down their supposed eye-witness testimonies. That's not evidence. It doesn't prove anything. It offers another explanation, and one that we can't claim is 100% false, but it doesn't make it true.
You should be accepting all evidence. You don't have to accept it as proof for a scientific theory, but you should accept it as something that has an explanation.
Cogito Ergo Sum

Good job. For this very reason, we don't accept scientific laws as 100% true. We accept them as the best explanation possible. You claim that because they can't answer everything, and because we can't prove them 100% true, they are unreliable, while the Bible, a book that has nothing to back itself up, you accept on faith.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

So we don't know what the right path is but we know what God wants? Wouldn't that be a claim of knowing the right path if the right path is what God wants?
Well, we know what we should ultimately do, but we don't know what we should do in immediate scope, at least in common tasks of the day. There are some possible situations when a Christian should really choose some extreme action, like standing to protect at the cost of one's life or similar, however we are not that strong usually to act like this... can't say better since I have never been in such a situation yet. There are some situations when a charity is really requested off us, there we have a choice of "do or not do" with bigger consequences than normal. Etc. So yes, sometimes we are capable of seeing what God wants from us right now, but it's not always like this.
Ugh. This is like explaining why red is not blue, but here we go. If God is perfect, then he is all-powerful, knows everything, and makes nothing without intention. If he intended everything that has happened to happen before it happened, then everything is predetermined.
It's like not seeing a flaw in your own logic even if pointed with a finger. Humans have the ability to alter the course of how the world is run, both in minor scale and in major scale. So that "if he intended..." is a wrong clause, because it's being based on false.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/did-god-create-hell.htm
This link's prophet states we are all saved. While this is a view of some Christians, it's still false. However, the exact opposite is also false, we will not ALL end up in Hell. And the link under "we" means I was almost right about Hell, but it was not by humans but by angels who refused God. Hmm.
Do you believe that god knows everything that was, is, and will happen?
An interesting question. And I'd like to answer it as well. I think God knows all the outcomes of our actions, and has set a plan for the world from somewhere, to a certain scale of events. Along with this, He gave us enough freedom to decide and alter the course of events to another certain degree, maybe even up to cancelling something. After all, there was an episode when God sent Noah to Ninever so he should tell them to repent, otherwise the city will be destroyed. They did, so God cancelled the announced plan.
Yes but if predestination holds true then God already knows which one of those actions you'll choose anyway so he already knows who's going to Heaven and who's going to Hell before anyone is even born.
Look above.
how is being greedy by nature (god made you that way you just said) fair to a eternity in hell?
What's that, "being greedy by nature"? Most likely you are covering your intentions with the word "natural", but you can't trick God, so you receive what you deserve.
No all of this information was given to us by humans claiming it was from God. We have no reason to believe it actually was or not, we just have to accept that claim at face value.
Hmm. Yes. But still, you are free to choose the life without God, you will just end up alone after death, and that equals Hell. About what is underneath words, look above and into your own mind to determine whether you cover something like selfishness under your "reason".
Why would he ever want to spend eternity with you?

Because we were the ones who truly expressed free will, used our abilities to reason he supposedly gave us to use and didn't follow a religion that for all we know could be completely wrong.
This means there's no reason for Him to do so, if you express your will to be without God.
Sooooo....I was once a Christian. By this logic, shouldn't your god have killed me while I was still a foolish child in order to "save" me?
This means there is still possibility for you to repent. It's possible that you will suffer here for long before finally accepting that you were wrong in going away from God. However, you still have a choice to get back or not - while you're alive. Also, it's possible that despite what you said, you still do good deeds to your neighbors, and you're still here for something you can and should do in future. This one is unknown however.
You're killing me with the links, bud. If you were making claims about science, or about what the Bible literally says, then a link is fine. But if you really think the things that are said in these links, just summarize them.
People want sources, people are provided sources. Get along with it, and check yourself.
Moses splits the sea (Again where is the evidence?)
By the way, there's a recent report of findings of chariots and human bones in a single place that was a seabed at about that time. Source
If you do not live to serve him, you will be cast off, away from him, where the Devil will take you and place you in hell. It is that simple.

Is this an example of God's omnibenevolence?
It's an example of Him respecting our free will. Period.
Why would god send someone to hell for not beliving in him. What about people who've never heard of him? And what about those who won't belive in him because they were brought up beliving in another god? And then there are those who don't belive in him but were still great people in the world.
There's more than Shift to provide basis for these. Read me please as well.
darkangel12341
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darkangel12341
111 posts
Nomad

We are arguing at very late hours of the night, or very early hours of the morning, are we not?

shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

What about people who've never heard of him? A: And what about those who won't belive in him because they were brought up beliving in another god? B: And then there are those who don't belive in him but were still great people in the world.


Well, the first question is a good one. I myself believe something entirely different then what the main church believes, but since I am alone in my defense I will just quote someone else.

(John 14:6 NIV) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

If someone arrived in Heaven, and Jesus told him "I am your lord, Jesus Christ", don't you think he would sympathize with someone who said, "Who?" What advantages do the people who haven't heard the Gospel really have over the mentally ill and unborn babies?

To the others,

A: If you were brought up in a different religion, (This does not exclude atheism) You must hear the light. Once you are given a chance, and you refuse to take it, you either accept one of the other chances, or go to hell when you die.

B: Everyone falls short. You do not have to believe in God to know that nobody can resist the sin of the Bible. There was only one truly great person in the world, and that was Jesus Christ.

This is still baseless as you have to accept the claims in the Bible without proof.


The bible is evidence. It isn't very good evidence, in your standards, but by definition it still is a foundation for a belief.

Considering God isn't equipping you with what's needed for this task then it's hardly giving us a chance.


We are given the tools we need to overcome sin. We all fail, but we do own the tools. Plus, we are saved by the grace of Jesus.

Which is why you get led in inaccurate and false directions.


Like ignoring evidence? We are both doing the same thing, just on a much different scale. (Me more than you.)

If he actually cares, he should. Besides, how much work is it for an all-powerful God? What is he doing if not trying to lead us to heaven?


What love would he show you if he forced you to submit to him? By sending you away, he is simply giving you what you want: Life without the Christian God.

You continue to miss the point. I don't care if God gives us a chance. Do you think it's moral to let us get tortured forever for a finite crime? Don't respond long-windedly, because you keep dodging the question. Just a simple "Yes" or "No".


You are completely wording the question wrong, but Yes. The reason you are cast away into hell is because God cannot bear the sight of sin. You may not stand in his presence if you aren't forgiven. As I have said, THIS IS YOUR CHANCE. If you would like better reasoning, ask Jesus when he is judging you for a second chance. His response will be more intelligent and absolute than I could hope to reply.

If he simply made it impossible for you to believe anything else, by showing you absolute proof, he would take away your free will. What sort of loving God would do that?

And if you don't like the answer, that doesn't mean God can't exist. Some Christian churches simply denounce the existence of hell.

Why do we need to be tested? God is playing a cruel game with us. Do we make the completely illogical choice of assuming that this God, among the many other gods, is the one to worship, and go to heaven? Or do we get tortured forever for picking the wrong god or picking no god? That's not a fair test. Why does he need to test us if he knows what we're going to do? He's just watching us squirm and putting us through pain, and then eternally disposing of some of us forever.
If God isn't spending all of his time and power trying to guide us to heaven, then he doesn't love us.
Let's try this a philisophical one. Why is God good?


God is not the one playing the game with us. Lucifer is. We are tempted because Satan challenged our integrity before the Lord. And if God had bestowed his intelligence upon Satan, he would have given him everything he ultimately desires; to be more God-like.

We are created to believe what God commands us is Good. How feeble we would be to deny what we believe at the heart of our existence? For it is written: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

The Bible is NOT evidence


BY DEFINITION, IT IS EVIDENCE. Wow, someone said this exact thing like 50 pages ago. They said something about a Giant Purple Ape living in a Floating Ice cream cone. (They have a better imagination than you, imo) Perhaps if billions of people came up to me saying they saw a Unicorn in the sky, and said it sincerely, I might actually believe them. Wouldn't you?

Good job. For this very reason, we don't accept scientific laws as 100% true.
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No, Cogito Ergo Sum tells you to doubt EVERYTHING. Rechecking ideas and work has nothing to do with this principle.
shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

After all, there was an episode when God sent Noah to Ninever so he should tell them to repent, otherwise the city will be destroyed. They did, so God cancelled the announced plan.


Don't you mean Jonah?


[quote]how is being greedy by nature (god made you that way you just said) fair to a eternity in hell?


What's that, "being greedy by nature"? Most likely you are covering your intentions with the word "natural", but you can't trick God, so you receive what you deserve.[/quote]

Last I checked, we are born babies, who aren't capable of sin, for obious reasons. Through temptations of this world and the devil we are cast into sin.

There's more than Shift to provide basis for these. Read me please as well.


I appreciate the help with correcting the misinformed, thanks.
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