I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done. I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
God did not create the evil, rather he gave angels and humans alike free-will. Lucifer was the anointed cherub. God gave lucifer power, but with lucifer used his own free-will to pervert his power
So God isn't omniscient?
Christian: Of course he is.
So God knew that by giving these agents free will that the end result would be evil, thus God is responsible for evil.
Christian: God didn't want drones, he gave us free will because he loves us.
Love us enough to give us something he knew would hurt us?
Christan: We corrupted this give and sinned.
Facepalm! Where did free will go with events where God directly intervenes?
Christian: God has to punish those who sin.
But he does it in a way that circumvents free will free will and punishes disproportionately.
Really this argument of free will simply doesn't work as an excuse. Even with free will an omission that God created humans and angels flawed, either intentionally or not. If not, then God failed and is not perfect and is at fault for doing sub-par work. If intentional then it again is his fault as it was intended for us and certain angels to do these things, making nos sense for us to be at fault for being what we were intended to be. God is often compared to a painter. If a painting doesn't turn out right we don't blame those faults in the painting on the painting but on the one who created that painting.
Interestingly enough this sort of "it's all our fault we deserved it" mentality fits with the symptoms of the Battered Wife Syndrome. "The abused believes that the violence was his or her fault." Christian: God gave us free will, so it's our fault for sinning and suffering as a result.
"The abused has an inability to place the responsibility for the violence elsewhere." Christian: We are born with sin.
"The abused fears for his/her life and/or the lives of his/her children (if present)." Christian: I pray you will be saved.
"The abused has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient." Christian: God is all powerful, all knowing and is all around us.
God did not create the evil, rather he gave angels and humans alike free-will. Lucifer was the anointed cherub. God gave lucifer power, but with lucifer used his own free-will to pervert his power
Where did you find that? My Bible says:
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 (KJV) Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
(Other translations use "disaster" or "calamity" instead of "evil" which doesn't make it better IMO)
Those were the bible passages I was looking for. But while searching, I came on here, and you might want to give it a look. Imo they make a point, but even if you consider that god didn't do anything evil (yet if you read the bible, you'll find things he did who were quite awful) god is still responsible for the existence of evil, even as a concept.
mainly my sunday school class.but its a logical conclusion.
According to the Bible, God created everything. Therefore, God created evil. Pretty simple logic.
God created free will. HE did not create evil, rather he created something which used free-will that God gave to create. We dont say, God created the lightbulb.but God did create the person who created the lightbulb. Follow my logic?
Another thing to note is the Bible never specifically states that God gave us free will and that it's some sort of cherished gift.
God created us in his image, God has free will. It's stated there. Not outright, but woven in. A lot of the things in the bible are woven in.
Imo they make a point, but even if you consider that god didn't do anything evil (yet if you read the bible, you'll find things he did who were quite awful) god is still responsible for the existence of evil, even as a concept.
that site is not my denomination. I will not pursue the matter.
Imo they make a point, but even if you consider that god didn't do anything evil (yet if you read the bible, you'll find things he did who were quite awful) god is still responsible for the existence of evil, even as a concept.
God created free will. HE did not create evil, rather he created something which used free-will that God gave to create. We dont say, God created the lightbulb.but God did create the person who created the lightbulb. Follow my logic?
Basically you're not disagreeing on the above quote; god didn't create evil, nor does he do it, but he's responsible for it as well as he is responsible for the lightbulb and basically everything. If he's not responsible, it means he didn't intend it, this means he didn't know it would happen, this means he isn't omniscient.
I've seen people arguing that evil is the absence of good->absence of god. But god is supposed to be omnipresent. Fail?
I've seen people arguing that evil is the absence of good->absence of god. But god is supposed to be omnipresent. Fail?
ya, fail. i dont argue that though.
Basically you're not disagreeing on the above quote; god didn't create evil, nor does he do it, but he's responsible for it as well as he is responsible for the lightbulb and basically everything. If he's not responsible, it means he didn't intend it, this means he didn't know it would happen, this means he isn't omniscient.
Looking at it from this time past, id agree with you, however you are not looking into the future.he DID know this was going to happen. But what is still to happen?only God knows. God gave us free will so we could love him. Not being forced to love him. He knew this was to happen. But we still love him.its the small things that matter most sometimes. Open your mind and look, look at the things God gave us, this far outweighs the evil things.
God created free will. HE did not create evil, rather he created something which used free-will that God gave to create. We dont say, God created the lightbulb.but God did create the person who created the lightbulb. Follow my logic?
No considering it's in direct contrast to what your holy text says.
In the two instances where it says God created evil that grimml posted (something I see your clearly ignoring) I looked up the Hebrew words used in those instances. The word that is being transilated as evil is ra' meaning bad, evil, not good, unfavorable, negative.
So in a sentence like this. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create ra': I the LORD do all these things.
What definition of the word do you think best fills in for ra'?
God created us in his image, God has free will. It's stated there. Not outright, but woven in. A lot of the things in the bible are woven in.
It's still not a specific implication. Basically this is a concept that you've manufactured yourself.
In the two instances where it says God created evil that grimml posted (something I see your clearly ignoring)
Sorry, didnt know what i was ignoring, can you tell me please?
So in a sentence like this. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create ra': I the LORD do all these things. What definition of the word do you think best fills in for ra'?
ra' did not mean evil.it meant not good. this may have been the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden. This is the first time i have seen this.i havent read isaih yet, that is from http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/create_evil.html
It's still not a specific implication. Basically this is a concept that you've manufactured yourself.
No, offense, but evolution was manufactured by humans. i said
He does not create sin, but He does create other bad or evil things. God creates hell, and that is a bad (evil) thing for people, but it is not sin, and it is perfectly consistent with God's Word to create it. God withdraws light, and thus creates darkness, but this is not sin. God takes away peace, and thus creates war, but this is not God sinning. God removes His hand of restraint from man's heart and it is hardened, but this is not God forcing him to sin. For God is "not obligated" to maintain peace, hold back war, or keep man's heart softened. And when we look at the very context of Isaiah chapter 45, it becomes clear that this is what God is saying. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:" Notice the contrast between these things. Light contrasted over against the darkness. And Peace contrasted over against Bad or evil. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. The Opposite of peace is war or adversity and trouble. And that is what God is saying. God establishes peace, and God brings evil by withdrawing that peace He has established. Because He's not obligated to bring man peace. He's not obligated to shine light upon every person. God bound Satan and God can loose him, He's not obligated to keep him bound. So you see, by taking away peace, God creates adversity and trouble as judgment upon the wicked for their unrighteousness. This is not sin or wickedness, it is justice. And scripture is replete with examples.
Looking at it from this time past, id agree with you, however you are not looking into the future.he DID know this was going to happen. But what is still to happen?only God knows. God gave us free will so we could love him. Not being forced to love him. He knew this was to happen. But we still love him.its the small things that matter most sometimes. Open your mind and look, look at the things God gave us, this far outweighs the evil things.
Why am I not looking into the future? What I said is independent of time, I think. I didn't say he shouldn't have created everything if he knew evil will be done; I just wanted to clarify his responsibility concerning evil. Now, I don't believe in god, I don't believe in objective evil or good, so I can't judge in the same way than you do about if it is worth or not.
No, offense, but evolution was manufactured by humans.
Wrong. Evolution is being described by humans, but the process is there whether we research it or not. We didn't make it up.
God bound Satan and God can loose him, He's not obligated to keep him bound.
I just had to think, why would he need to loose satan at all, if evil can be done by humans with free will alone? Satan is not needed, theoretically. Loosening him is only one more gratuitous way to 'test' and tempt/corrupt people.
Why am I not looking into the future? What I said is independent of time, I think. I didn't say he shouldn't have created everything if he knew evil will be done; I just wanted to clarify his responsibility concerning evil. Now, I don't believe in god, I don't believe in objective evil or good, so I can't judge in the same way than you do about if it is worth or not.
God did not create evil, for fitygillionth time. God did create 'not good' things as bad and greivious. please go to this website, it should clear up this discussion-
